Lightweight flywheel / twin plate clutch
Discussion
So most peeps have been raving about this update and, since my car's still sporting the original clutch after 45,000 miles and is nearing the end of its useful life, I've been looking into this upgrade. I have to admit, I was concerned that the clutch might be too aggressive for the streets and with my lack of talent I'd embarrass myself by stalling the car in slow-moving traffic - I live in London so it could very well happen a lot!!
Anyway, if I've done my homework correctly, I think the three choicest sources for this update are:
Prodrive - supply (but do not fit) the official GT4 spec clutch and flywheel at a cost of about £1,750 + VAT but with six weeks needed to supply.
David Appleby Engineering - supply and fit their own GT4 spec clutch and flywheel (i.e. same but different to the Prodrive edition) at a cost of £2,720 + VAT (fitted price) and only a week's wait for the parts.
Bamford Rose - own design and great feedback but don't have any info on pricing / availability.
If you assume that the Prodrive and Appleby products are of the comparable quality, then there's probably not much to choose between them save that with Prodrive you can take the kit to be fitted by your workshop of choice but then Appleby are only charging £1K for fitment which is quite competitive (especially compared to main dealer) and do this work regularly for GT4 racers.
Has anyone on here had either the Prodrive or Appleby units fitted to their car?
I've seen plenty of feedback on Bamford Rose and think it safe to assume that quality would be top notch. Unfortunately I've not been able to get any idea on pricing / availability out of Mike and his team - too many phone calls now unreturned and emails left unanswered - it may be that, given the awesome scale of some of the projects they have going on, this type of job on its own is a bit of a distraction, I don't know.
Any thoughts on the Prodrive or Appleby units much appreciated.
Cheers
Anyway, if I've done my homework correctly, I think the three choicest sources for this update are:
Prodrive - supply (but do not fit) the official GT4 spec clutch and flywheel at a cost of about £1,750 + VAT but with six weeks needed to supply.
David Appleby Engineering - supply and fit their own GT4 spec clutch and flywheel (i.e. same but different to the Prodrive edition) at a cost of £2,720 + VAT (fitted price) and only a week's wait for the parts.
Bamford Rose - own design and great feedback but don't have any info on pricing / availability.
If you assume that the Prodrive and Appleby products are of the comparable quality, then there's probably not much to choose between them save that with Prodrive you can take the kit to be fitted by your workshop of choice but then Appleby are only charging £1K for fitment which is quite competitive (especially compared to main dealer) and do this work regularly for GT4 racers.
Has anyone on here had either the Prodrive or Appleby units fitted to their car?
I've seen plenty of feedback on Bamford Rose and think it safe to assume that quality would be top notch. Unfortunately I've not been able to get any idea on pricing / availability out of Mike and his team - too many phone calls now unreturned and emails left unanswered - it may be that, given the awesome scale of some of the projects they have going on, this type of job on its own is a bit of a distraction, I don't know.
Any thoughts on the Prodrive or Appleby units much appreciated.
Cheers
Edited by Pete675 on Thursday 12th September 21:51
He won't be answering emails today as he has just driven down to collect my manual DB9 for 'Project Blofeld'. (I don't think he will get back to the workshop until around 2230).
One of the 'Modifications' is the Lightweight Flywheel and Twin Plate Clutch.
I am not sure why they haven't responded to your inquiries, they always respond to emails, texts and phone calls when I have 'Just another question'.
Get the car back on the 29th Sept....Good job a week in Dubai and a week in Monaco has been planned in to fill the gap.
One of the 'Modifications' is the Lightweight Flywheel and Twin Plate Clutch.
I am not sure why they haven't responded to your inquiries, they always respond to emails, texts and phone calls when I have 'Just another question'.
Get the car back on the 29th Sept....Good job a week in Dubai and a week in Monaco has been planned in to fill the gap.
Search the forum old chap. I forget who but some unfortunate decided to fit the GT4 clutch, against popular advice, with Appleby and had to take it out after a few weeks because it was unusable on the roads.
I am a BR convert with a DB9 torque converter so clutches are not my world but do listen to those who have converted to the lightweight from BR.
I am a BR convert with a DB9 torque converter so clutches are not my world but do listen to those who have converted to the lightweight from BR.
Speculatore said:
Get the car back on the 29th Sept....Good job a week in Dubai and a week in Monaco has been planned in to fill the gap.
No worries, I will try giving Mike another shout. Awesome, look forward to reading your write up on how chuffed you are with the modifications, undoubtedly will be very!
woolders said:
Search the forum old chap. I forget who but some unfortunate decided to fit the GT4 clutch, against popular advice, with Appleby and had to take it out after a few weeks because it was unusable on the roads.
I am a BR convert with a DB9 torque converter so clutches are not my world but do listen to those who have converted to the lightweight from BR.
Blimey! Thanks for the heads up, woolders.I am a BR convert with a DB9 torque converter so clutches are not my world but do listen to those who have converted to the lightweight from BR.
Been looking into all the clutch options myself, I think the BR clutch is £3700 + VAT?
My own thoughts on this, the twin plate clutch seems like it has a better feel from people's feedback (more progressive etc) and could well last longer but I struggle with the whole 'light' thing and spinning up faster. The flywheel is designed to have a certain moment of inertia (resistance to speeding up or slowing down) because its job is to smooth out motion! Without a flywheel, rotating systems become jerky. With a race car smoothness is not an issue, it's all about response, but we have road cars. The other thing, I wonder how significant the clutch's moment of inertia is when compared to the inertia of trying to accelerate the vehicle itself with its 1600kg mass + rolling resistance + wind resistance? Intuitively it would seem the clutch weight is relatively insignificant.
David Appleby do offer a clutch plate only repair option at £1000 + VAT, which is interesting, cheapest std clutch replacement anywhere else is £2400.
My own thoughts on this, the twin plate clutch seems like it has a better feel from people's feedback (more progressive etc) and could well last longer but I struggle with the whole 'light' thing and spinning up faster. The flywheel is designed to have a certain moment of inertia (resistance to speeding up or slowing down) because its job is to smooth out motion! Without a flywheel, rotating systems become jerky. With a race car smoothness is not an issue, it's all about response, but we have road cars. The other thing, I wonder how significant the clutch's moment of inertia is when compared to the inertia of trying to accelerate the vehicle itself with its 1600kg mass + rolling resistance + wind resistance? Intuitively it would seem the clutch weight is relatively insignificant.
David Appleby do offer a clutch plate only repair option at £1000 + VAT, which is interesting, cheapest std clutch replacement anywhere else is £2400.
stevewushu said:
THIS WAS NOT THD GT4 TWIN PLATE CLUTCH. Which I can assure you is a very good upgrade. I've driven one if their cars with this done and its fantastic. In retrospect I should have just had this fitted.
Thanks for clarifying that Steve. Really good to know. I will give James a bell, spoke to him once before to get an idea of availability and he seemed a really nice chap.Edited by Pete675 on Thursday 12th September 22:14
Jalfonse said:
David Appleby do offer a clutch plate only repair option at £1000 + VAT, which is interesting, cheapest std clutch replacement anywhere else is £2400.
I noticed this as well, really good idea and suspect that makes them quite competitive on normal clutch replacements.Anyway, interesting observations generally. I read one comment that the lightened flywheel gave the car an unusual (but not unsettling) sensation when coming to a slow stop or as you begin climbing up a hill - the momentum with a lightened flywheel is not as not as strong so you lose and gain revs much quicker... might take some getting used to! Probably wise in any case to try and get a drive in one with this upgrade before placing the order.
Edited by Pete675 on Thursday 12th September 22:12
Good idea to try before you buy. It is a fact that we look for justification to spend money on upgrades and improvements and can sometimes talk ourselves into having our wallets 'lightened' unecessarily in the process, I've seen and experienced this with Nissan, TVR, Porsche and Mustang. There are lots of good and effective mods out there though if you hunt around. I remember searching for Mustang exhaust manifolds and was trying to justify buying some tuned equal length manifolds (shorty headers as they're known) but ALL independant dynos showed they made very little difference, despite them looking beautiful. The long tube headers did make a difference but were so long they couldn't easily be fitted with catalysts. The small improvement could have been due to the ford original manifolds being 'good' in the first place? , but they didn't look it, all rough cast and different length.
Best mod I ever made (I've done lots) was to cut a half inch off my Nissan 200sx turbo waste gate hose, this removed an orifice and (without getting too technical) delayed the opening of the turbo waste gate and increased boost pressure. Gave an extra 30-40hp, more than a super chip!! Cost zilch ;-)
Best mod I ever made (I've done lots) was to cut a half inch off my Nissan 200sx turbo waste gate hose, this removed an orifice and (without getting too technical) delayed the opening of the turbo waste gate and increased boost pressure. Gave an extra 30-40hp, more than a super chip!! Cost zilch ;-)
Jalfonse said:
Been looking into all the clutch options myself, I think the BR clutch is £3700 + VAT?
My own thoughts on this, the twin plate clutch seems like it has a better feel from people's feedback (more progressive etc) and could well last longer but I struggle with the whole 'light' thing and spinning up faster. The flywheel is designed to have a certain moment of inertia (resistance to speeding up or slowing down) because its job is to smooth out motion! Without a flywheel, rotating systems become jerky. With a race car smoothness is not an issue, it's all about response, but we have road cars. The other thing, I wonder how significant the clutch's moment of inertia is when compared to the inertia of trying to accelerate the vehicle itself with its 1600kg mass + rolling resistance + wind resistance? Intuitively it would seem the clutch weight is relatively insignificant.
David Appleby do offer a clutch plate only repair option at £1000 + VAT, which is interesting, cheapest std clutch replacement anywhere else is £2400.
I would imagine that adding the weight of a double plate clutch will counter the weight saving of a lightweight flywheel and that may be the reason for the pair being combined.My own thoughts on this, the twin plate clutch seems like it has a better feel from people's feedback (more progressive etc) and could well last longer but I struggle with the whole 'light' thing and spinning up faster. The flywheel is designed to have a certain moment of inertia (resistance to speeding up or slowing down) because its job is to smooth out motion! Without a flywheel, rotating systems become jerky. With a race car smoothness is not an issue, it's all about response, but we have road cars. The other thing, I wonder how significant the clutch's moment of inertia is when compared to the inertia of trying to accelerate the vehicle itself with its 1600kg mass + rolling resistance + wind resistance? Intuitively it would seem the clutch weight is relatively insignificant.
David Appleby do offer a clutch plate only repair option at £1000 + VAT, which is interesting, cheapest std clutch replacement anywhere else is £2400.
The lightweight flywheel will allow more power to be transmitted into accelerating the car rather than accelerating the flywheel, although it does not give more power. It does give more transmitted power though during acceleration and will allow the engine to rev faster and slow faster also. This allows faster gearchanging as the revs drop faster as soon as the clutch is depressed. There is negligable effect on smoothness on a V8 or V12 with so many power strokes per rotation.
The disadvantages are whether the engine management response time can adjust the throttle during downshift fast enough so that the engine revs do not drop so far, the engine cuts or surges, hunting for the idle.
On a BMW M5, junking the steel flywheel and installing the alloy lightweight unit is worth 40-45bhp bhp in first gear, and that sort of power is not easy to find elsewhere.
8Tech.
KarlFranz said:
Don't know why outfits like BR wouldn't want to make some more money by selling their clutch system to people who don't live near enough to have it personally installed by them.
Morning Karl, No disrespect to our friends on the other side of the pond but I suspect insurance may be an issue 
A twin plate clutch has to fit in the same space as a single plate clutch - but it has an extra driving plate (effectively part of the flywheel mass) and an extra driven plate. The torque to be transmitted is divided between the flywheel and the extra driving plate. The flywheel may well be lighter because it no longer need to have as much mass (and because there is not as much axial space to house it), but I would think that the overall mass of the rotating bits connected to the engine would be much the same, or even a litte more than standard. The twin driven plates mean that, provided the heat capacity is sufficient,the capability of transmitting torque is much increased. I might have one when my standard clutch fails.
AMDBSNick said:
KarlFranz said:
Don't know why outfits like BR wouldn't want to make some more money by selling their clutch system to people who don't live near enough to have it personally installed by them.
Morning Karl, No disrespect to our friends on the other side of the pond but I suspect insurance may be an issue With a special set-up, this can be fatal, and I sympathise with BR policy of maintaining control over the installation. It keeps quality and reputation firmly their responsibility, which they are undoubtably satisfied with. If there is a concern, then they at least know its either their parts or services, or driver error, and they will not get embroiled in arguements as whether it is a component or installation error.
Maybe they could find very reputable international agents who could also guarantee both them and the customer the quality service they demand?
8Tech.
Jalfonse said:
but I struggle with the whole 'light' thing and spinning up faster.
I too was a bit cynical that it would make as big a difference as it did. I changed it because:-a. I'd had a number of unexpected smelly instances in the last 6 months
b. The car was at Bamfords for service, mot and manifold anyway and one of the unexpected smellies was reversing into the parking space at BR!
c. Lots of positive reviews of it.
d. Mike gave me an additional discount on the clutch as it was being done in tandem with the manifolds, as some labour was saved.
e. The budget committee approved it.
In the event (as I've harped on about for the last week) the transformation was beyond belief.
It does take a little bit of re-education to use the lighter clutch assembly, but there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the OEM flywheel/clutch is an overweight piece of s
t that has no place in a sports car.My 2p
8Tech said:
I would imagine that adding the weight of a double plate clutch will counter the weight saving of a lightweight flywheel and that may be the reason for the pair being combined.
8Tech. I'm certainly not going to go up against you technically!However, the twin plate clutch may or may not weigh the same, but the point is it's smaller diameter and any. Mass near the centre of rotation has less inertia than mass further out, so the effect would still be an improved response.
Be gentle with me!
KarlFranz said:
Don't know why outfits like BR wouldn't want to make some more money by selling their clutch system to people who don't live near enough to have it personally installed by them.
I also understand that it comes down to the warranty that BR are willing to offer on their products. I presume that they aren't willing to offer the same warranty if they haven't installed it themselves (for good reason).How about asking GenAMR/Applebys to send you their equivalent twin clutch & flywheel package?
Gassing Station | Aston Martin | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff