oil pump prime silly question...
Discussion
I have read the various threads on priming the oil pump and decided a drill pump is the best solution but,
If I have the drill pump connected to the block at one end and a bucket if oil the other won't I end up with way too much oil in the engine?
Also, will I see pressure on the gauge while pumping oil in?
If I have the drill pump connected to the block at one end and a bucket if oil the other won't I end up with way too much oil in the engine?
Also, will I see pressure on the gauge while pumping oil in?
When I tried this method all I succeed in doing was wasting a lot of oil and burning out the drill pump as the seals didn't seem to like the oil.
Just fill the engine with oil and start it and hold it at 2k rpm. If you don't have oil pressure within 15 secs turn it off again. The pressure will come up almost instantly unless our pump is knackered. Spinning the engine on the starter won't be fast enough either.
I agonised over this problem for days and eventually ended up following the advice of a very experienced ex-factory TVR mechanic and just started it! In his words "pissing about with drills and oil isn't going to do the job - just start the f*****g thing" .
Just fill the engine with oil and start it and hold it at 2k rpm. If you don't have oil pressure within 15 secs turn it off again. The pressure will come up almost instantly unless our pump is knackered. Spinning the engine on the starter won't be fast enough either.
I agonised over this problem for days and eventually ended up following the advice of a very experienced ex-factory TVR mechanic and just started it! In his words "pissing about with drills and oil isn't going to do the job - just start the f*****g thing" .
My engine had been out of the car, inverted on an engine stand, partially stripped and stood for 6 months. I was advised that unless you have take the sump off and wiped the oilways etc there would be enough residual film to start it safely. It certainly worked for me. I did oil the cams by hand when I reassembled the top end.
I might take a cam over off to see how much oil I find...or I might just start it up.
Before I do this though I need to go and change the battery I bought yesterday. My new one from halfords doesn't fit. It is about 10mm taller than the old one...with the same code.
I knew buying the battery from Halfords wouldn't go well from the conversation I had when I was browsing the batteries yesterday:
Halfords bod: "Can I help you sir?"
Me: "I was looking for a replacement battery, I have an item code"
Halfords bod: "I need to know which car it is the code won't help me"
Me: "A TVR Cerbera"
Halfords bod: "A TR what?"
Me: "No a TVR Cerbera"
Halfords bod: "Is that a sort of car?"
Me: "Yes"
Halfords bod: "I will look it up on the computer - come with me"
...short walk to the computer with my patience running out...
Halfords bod: "So what car is it?"
Me: "A TVR"
Halfords bod: "OK - and what is the make of the car?"
Me: "TVR"
Halfords bod: "Is that T...V...R..."
Me: "Yes"
Halfords bod: "Is that an old car - I can't find it"
Me: "Just forget it!"
I then find the battery with the same item code printed on it as mine 957134.
I got home from work around 9pm and removed my air intake, slide out the old battery, slide in the new one and it won't fit under the wing. I placed both batteries next to each other on the floor and the new one is clearly taller - same item code, model number and bar code though.
Looks like I will be back to Halfords tonight for more fun and games.
Before I do this though I need to go and change the battery I bought yesterday. My new one from halfords doesn't fit. It is about 10mm taller than the old one...with the same code.
I knew buying the battery from Halfords wouldn't go well from the conversation I had when I was browsing the batteries yesterday:
Halfords bod: "Can I help you sir?"
Me: "I was looking for a replacement battery, I have an item code"
Halfords bod: "I need to know which car it is the code won't help me"
Me: "A TVR Cerbera"
Halfords bod: "A TR what?"
Me: "No a TVR Cerbera"
Halfords bod: "Is that a sort of car?"
Me: "Yes"
Halfords bod: "I will look it up on the computer - come with me"
...short walk to the computer with my patience running out...
Halfords bod: "So what car is it?"
Me: "A TVR"
Halfords bod: "OK - and what is the make of the car?"
Me: "TVR"
Halfords bod: "Is that T...V...R..."
Me: "Yes"
Halfords bod: "Is that an old car - I can't find it"
Me: "Just forget it!"
I then find the battery with the same item code printed on it as mine 957134.
I got home from work around 9pm and removed my air intake, slide out the old battery, slide in the new one and it won't fit under the wing. I placed both batteries next to each other on the floor and the new one is clearly taller - same item code, model number and bar code though.
Looks like I will be back to Halfords tonight for more fun and games.
TimJM said:
I might take a cam over off to see how much oil I find...or I might just start it up.
I was thinking of doing that, but I was oiling the cams a lot when I was shimming it & after only half an hour or so the amount of oil still up in the head was down to exactly the same amount there was in there when I first took the heads off, it had been standing for over two years then! You’ll be fine. Mind you may want to pop the covers of to just check the valve clearances if you haven’t already...
For starting, to be really safe I think rids said you can poor a little oil back down the pipe to the pump to be sure there is some in there so it’s not pumping air, that is all I’ll be doing very soon.
The car has been standing or about 2 years although the engine was started briefly about 4 months ago.
I would like to check the valve clearances as I don't know when it was last done but I was thinking about taking the car to a garage to have this done. The main thinking is that if the engine starts and drives OK they are probably close enough to get me to a garage where I can have them adjusted properly. Also I have bad form for checking clearances...I have done this myself once before (not on a TVR thankfully) and was quite happy with my efforts until the engine went pop. I am not sure if I contributed to that or if it was coincidence but I don't feel confident with clearances any more.
When you say pour a little oil back down the pipe to the pump which one do you mean? The one from the filter?
Also, if I was the oil would I flow:
sump->pump->cooler->filter->engine->sump
I would like to check the valve clearances as I don't know when it was last done but I was thinking about taking the car to a garage to have this done. The main thinking is that if the engine starts and drives OK they are probably close enough to get me to a garage where I can have them adjusted properly. Also I have bad form for checking clearances...I have done this myself once before (not on a TVR thankfully) and was quite happy with my efforts until the engine went pop. I am not sure if I contributed to that or if it was coincidence but I don't feel confident with clearances any more.
When you say pour a little oil back down the pipe to the pump which one do you mean? The one from the filter?
Also, if I was the oil would I flow:
sump->pump->cooler->filter->engine->sump
Most manufacturers changed the height of the 'standard' battery a couple of years ago.
Have a look this thread: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Have a look this thread: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I've just rebuilt my4.2 And replace I oil lines and cooler The safest way to do it Remove the Spark plugs And disconnect The fuel relay. Which is located above the tank On the left.
It took quite some time to get oil pressure. Nearly 40 minutes. But this way is no dangers of the engine started. Just turn it over 10 to 20 Seconds at a time. My oil Pressure jump straight up to 80psi
It took quite some time to get oil pressure. Nearly 40 minutes. But this way is no dangers of the engine started. Just turn it over 10 to 20 Seconds at a time. My oil Pressure jump straight up to 80psi
dswiscrazy said:
I've just rebuilt my4.2 And replace I oil lines and cooler The safest way to do it Remove the Spark plugs And disconnect The fuel relay. Which is located above the tank On the left.
It took quite some time to get oil pressure. Nearly 40 minutes. But this way is no dangers of the engine started. Just turn it over 10 to 20 Seconds at a time. My oil Pressure jump straight up to 80psi
It took 40 minutes of cranking? It took quite some time to get oil pressure. Nearly 40 minutes. But this way is no dangers of the engine started. Just turn it over 10 to 20 Seconds at a time. My oil Pressure jump straight up to 80psi
How many starter motors did you get through?!!!dswiscrazy said:
I've just rebuilt my4.2 And replace I oil lines and cooler The safest way to do it Remove the Spark plugs And disconnect The fuel relay. Which is located above the tank On the left.
It took quite some time to get oil pressure. Nearly 40 minutes. But this way is no dangers of the engine started. Just turn it over 10 to 20 Seconds at a time. My oil Pressure jump straight up to 80psi
40 minutes???! just because you are spinning it on the starter doesn't somehow magically protect the bearings. You can damage them plenty in 40 min even at starter speeds. The fact that you didn't shred (if you havn't damaged them) them would indicate they had plenty of oil film.It took quite some time to get oil pressure. Nearly 40 minutes. But this way is no dangers of the engine started. Just turn it over 10 to 20 Seconds at a time. My oil Pressure jump straight up to 80psi
40 minutes without oil pressure or 10 seconds... I know which I choose.
TimJM said:
The car has been standing or about 2 years although the engine was started briefly about 4 months ago.
I would like to check the valve clearances as I don't know when it was last done but I was thinking about taking the car to a garage to have this done. The main thinking is that if the engine starts and drives OK they are probably close enough to get me to a garage where I can have them adjusted properly. Also I have bad form for checking clearances...I have done this myself once before (not on a TVR thankfully) and was quite happy with my efforts until the engine went pop. I am not sure if I contributed to that or if it was coincidence but I don't feel confident with clearances any more.
When you say pour a little oil back down the pipe to the pump which one do you mean? The one from the filter?
Also, if I was the oil would I flow:
sump->pump->cooler->filter->engine->sump
This is what ridds said in your last thread about oil pressure I would like to check the valve clearances as I don't know when it was last done but I was thinking about taking the car to a garage to have this done. The main thinking is that if the engine starts and drives OK they are probably close enough to get me to a garage where I can have them adjusted properly. Also I have bad form for checking clearances...I have done this myself once before (not on a TVR thankfully) and was quite happy with my efforts until the engine went pop. I am not sure if I contributed to that or if it was coincidence but I don't feel confident with clearances any more.
When you say pour a little oil back down the pipe to the pump which one do you mean? The one from the filter?
Also, if I was the oil would I flow:
sump->pump->cooler->filter->engine->sump
ridds said:
You can faff around taking plugs out, removing fuel pump fuses etc but most of the time you will end up making more trouble for yourself.
If you were really fussed about priming then pop the oil filter inlet hose off, lift it up and pour oil in VERY slowly holding the pipe with a rag. You will spill the oil! Allow this to drain back to the pump, repeat 2-3 times. Refit the hose and then just start it up briefly.
Cranking usually mean taking longer to build pressure due to the slow speed of the pump. When priming engines I start them and shut them down as soon as they fire. This helps pump the oil against any airlocks and reduces the heat build up in bearings.
But as said if it was started only 4 months ago I wouldn't bother with taking hoses off. If you were really fussed about priming then pop the oil filter inlet hose off, lift it up and pour oil in VERY slowly holding the pipe with a rag. You will spill the oil!
Allow this to drain back to the pump, repeat 2-3 times. Refit the hose and then just start it up briefly.Cranking usually mean taking longer to build pressure due to the slow speed of the pump. When priming engines I start them and shut them down as soon as they fire. This helps pump the oil against any airlocks and reduces the heat build up in bearings.
Yes, I know I worry too much but I have news...
I swapped my battery for a replacement at halfords (Bosch silver something) I will get the code if anyone is interested. It is smaller than the halfords HB072 battery which no longer fits a Cerbera (new supplier changed design a couple of years back no it is 12mm higher) but it seems to have much more kick; it really spins the starter over.
Anyhow, hooked everything up, put the air intakes back, coolant back in and gave her a whirl..the car spun over on the new battery at a fair old pace but no pressure whatsoever. My test gauge didn't even move.
So I decided to take a risk - I undid the gauge and left the capillary tube open and cranked her over for 10-15 seconds expecting a fountain of oil. The pipe was dry. Not a drop of oil appeared.
I was starting to get really worried now. More worrying was the fact the car didn't even try to fire. I know it has been standing for 2 years (with a quick start up 4 months ago) so I didn't expect it to fire up immediately but I expected something...I then remembered I had taken the fuel pump fuse out!
So faced with the fact no oil was flowing at all I thought bugger it. If the engine is coming out it will have a 4.7 rebuild! With my nothing to lose attitude I decided one last ditch attempt was in order.
I took the oil pressure relief spring out that I fitted last night to check it was seated right - all looked OK. I replaced the oil filter with a new one and changed the oil for Halfords best 5W50 fully synth. Taking the oil plug out was kind of reassuring. It has a really strong magnet bar sticking out and that was swarf free. No metal particles at all but the oil that came out wasn't great. It looked OK on the dipstick but when I drained it, it was black and thick.
Here is the sump plug, that magnet bar is really long and pretty powerful. When I undid the plug it didn't want to come out the sump. I thought something was wrong at first as the thread was undone, it was just the magnet stuck to the sump!
I then decided to just go for it as many people have told me. Here is my video (the loud rattle which seems exaggerated on my phone mic is an exhaust bracket rattling against the chassis)
First start - I was a little surprised by how quick it fired into life
77PSI!!!
Considering I was standing outside the car just pressing the black button I was amazed. It fired into life almost on the first turn. My last Cerb always likes a little throttle to start up, this one even after a long period standing just started with no help. It was a little lumpy at first and I gave it some revs up to 2k (the dark bit in the video).
Where the video stops it was as the engine stalled. Well - it had been standing for a while.
For those who don't have video access (or can't be arsed) here is a pic of my test gauge:
The picture angle is a little misleading but the gauge is reading about 77-78psi when looking at it straight on. I was so happy to see this!!!
And all the advice on here was right - the pressure came up in 2-3 seconds after starting it. No time at all. I think cranking it with no pressure would cause more damage than just starting it up.
The engine settled into a nice idle, revved freely once up to temp and sounded sweet - not a trace of smoke either. I don't think my neighbours were as happy as me at nearly 10pm and the car doesn't have any exhausts on but I don't care.
My oil gauge in the car still doesn't work but that is a cheap fix compared to an engine out job.
This is just the motivation I needed to get back on with the chassis painting. I need to crack on with this project and go for a drive.
Thanks for all the advice and encouragement - I know nothing about cars really and the help from the people on here is invaluable.
is on me when this car makes it to its first meet!
I swapped my battery for a replacement at halfords (Bosch silver something) I will get the code if anyone is interested. It is smaller than the halfords HB072 battery which no longer fits a Cerbera (new supplier changed design a couple of years back no it is 12mm higher) but it seems to have much more kick; it really spins the starter over.
Anyhow, hooked everything up, put the air intakes back, coolant back in and gave her a whirl..the car spun over on the new battery at a fair old pace but no pressure whatsoever. My test gauge didn't even move.
So I decided to take a risk - I undid the gauge and left the capillary tube open and cranked her over for 10-15 seconds expecting a fountain of oil. The pipe was dry. Not a drop of oil appeared.
I was starting to get really worried now. More worrying was the fact the car didn't even try to fire. I know it has been standing for 2 years (with a quick start up 4 months ago) so I didn't expect it to fire up immediately but I expected something...I then remembered I had taken the fuel pump fuse out!
So faced with the fact no oil was flowing at all I thought bugger it. If the engine is coming out it will have a 4.7 rebuild! With my nothing to lose attitude I decided one last ditch attempt was in order.
I took the oil pressure relief spring out that I fitted last night to check it was seated right - all looked OK. I replaced the oil filter with a new one and changed the oil for Halfords best 5W50 fully synth. Taking the oil plug out was kind of reassuring. It has a really strong magnet bar sticking out and that was swarf free. No metal particles at all but the oil that came out wasn't great. It looked OK on the dipstick but when I drained it, it was black and thick.
Here is the sump plug, that magnet bar is really long and pretty powerful. When I undid the plug it didn't want to come out the sump. I thought something was wrong at first as the thread was undone, it was just the magnet stuck to the sump!
I then decided to just go for it as many people have told me. Here is my video (the loud rattle which seems exaggerated on my phone mic is an exhaust bracket rattling against the chassis)
First start - I was a little surprised by how quick it fired into life
77PSI!!!Considering I was standing outside the car just pressing the black button I was amazed. It fired into life almost on the first turn. My last Cerb always likes a little throttle to start up, this one even after a long period standing just started with no help. It was a little lumpy at first and I gave it some revs up to 2k (the dark bit in the video).
Where the video stops it was as the engine stalled. Well - it had been standing for a while.
For those who don't have video access (or can't be arsed) here is a pic of my test gauge:
The picture angle is a little misleading but the gauge is reading about 77-78psi when looking at it straight on. I was so happy to see this!!!
And all the advice on here was right - the pressure came up in 2-3 seconds after starting it. No time at all. I think cranking it with no pressure would cause more damage than just starting it up.
The engine settled into a nice idle, revved freely once up to temp and sounded sweet - not a trace of smoke either. I don't think my neighbours were as happy as me at nearly 10pm and the car doesn't have any exhausts on but I don't care.
My oil gauge in the car still doesn't work but that is a cheap fix compared to an engine out job.
This is just the motivation I needed to get back on with the chassis painting. I need to crack on with this project and go for a drive.
Thanks for all the advice and encouragement - I know nothing about cars really and the help from the people on here is invaluable.
is on me when this car makes it to its first meet!
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff