Why all hybrids and the 918 might suck at trackdays...
Discussion
OK, so it's a severe title to get attention.
Don't get me wrong I think all the P1/918/LaFerrari are awesome cars in different ways and I'm very glad they all exist. I also watched the 6:57 lap from the 918 with my jaw-dropped in awe (at both driver and car) but;
The biggest highlight for me from this video is that if you want to track ANY of these hydrid cars, within about 6 minutes of full-on lapping you're not driving the same car anymore as you've basically lost 20-30% of your power. Porsche is sadly the worst for this since the electric motor comprises 31% of overall power vs 17%/19% in the LaF and P1.
After one lap at the 'ring an 887hp 918 will be down as low as 608bhp on engine only. Obviously it'll pick up some electric juice through a lap, but the re-charge rate is massively lower than discharge, so it's a losing game for all these. Hence why it's so much slower on the straights at the end of the lap than the beginning.
Kind of makes me wonder what the top speed would drop to after running 5 minutes at high speed on the Autobahns, or how much the 0-300kph would drop by.
Won't be much fun for a 618 driver when 10 minutes into a 30 minutes session at Silverstone or Spa that the car only has full power for some of the straights and not others. Suddenly that GT3/GT2/CGT that was being easily overtaken might be all over the back of you. I'd go so far as thinking that on a 2nd lap at the 'ring a CGT on the same tyres might be faster than a 918!
Tagline:
'Petrol - all your power, all the time'
Don't get me wrong I think all the P1/918/LaFerrari are awesome cars in different ways and I'm very glad they all exist. I also watched the 6:57 lap from the 918 with my jaw-dropped in awe (at both driver and car) but;
The biggest highlight for me from this video is that if you want to track ANY of these hydrid cars, within about 6 minutes of full-on lapping you're not driving the same car anymore as you've basically lost 20-30% of your power. Porsche is sadly the worst for this since the electric motor comprises 31% of overall power vs 17%/19% in the LaF and P1.
After one lap at the 'ring an 887hp 918 will be down as low as 608bhp on engine only. Obviously it'll pick up some electric juice through a lap, but the re-charge rate is massively lower than discharge, so it's a losing game for all these. Hence why it's so much slower on the straights at the end of the lap than the beginning.
Kind of makes me wonder what the top speed would drop to after running 5 minutes at high speed on the Autobahns, or how much the 0-300kph would drop by.
Won't be much fun for a 618 driver when 10 minutes into a 30 minutes session at Silverstone or Spa that the car only has full power for some of the straights and not others. Suddenly that GT3/GT2/CGT that was being easily overtaken might be all over the back of you. I'd go so far as thinking that on a 2nd lap at the 'ring a CGT on the same tyres might be faster than a 918!
Tagline:
'Petrol - all your power, all the time'
I think on the road it won't be so much of an issue. It's hard on the road to be flat out in a car for long periods ie max braking/acceleration in the same relentless way as you can on track. So on the road there's more braking (charging) and less full-throttle draining of the battery. The exception would probably be hard uphill driving on mountain passes and autobahn blasts.
Big problem for the 918 is that whilst its an amazing car, when the battery is dead it's got the same power as a CGT and 300-350kg extra to deal with!
Big problem for the 918 is that whilst its an amazing car, when the battery is dead it's got the same power as a CGT and 300-350kg extra to deal with!
Edited by Guyr on Sunday 15th September 11:43
Edited by Guyr on Sunday 15th September 11:43
Doom found otherwise on his test drive:
wtdoom said:
Dazed and somewhat excited ( mouth went into overdrive poor Guido could not stop laughing )we crawled back into the pits . Amazingly we had slightly more electric power in the “tank”( so to speak) that when we went out .
It is unbelievable , the car is charged by the brakes and sometime from the engine so the speed of recovery is unbelievable . The sheer immediacy and amount of the torque fed into driveline has to bee seen to be believed and I do believe 4wd will be better able to exploit this than 2wd
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1325775&mid=192962&nmt=918+Drive+%2C+Leipzig+It is unbelievable , the car is charged by the brakes and sometime from the engine so the speed of recovery is unbelievable . The sheer immediacy and amount of the torque fed into driveline has to bee seen to be believed and I do believe 4wd will be better able to exploit this than 2wd
I know Doom and respect his opinion. I cannot comment on his laps though since only he knows how they were driven and what he experienced. Only time will tell what the 918 experience in relation to this issue is on track and Doom will be one of very few who will likely push the car as hard as it can be pushed on track.
What is clear though is we have a video that shows that a full 918 drains it's battery in under one lap of the 'ring. Battery drainage will be a performance issue for the 918 and P1 on circuits although for the LaFerrari it'll be more likely caused by leaving the lights on outside Harrods
What is clear though is we have a video that shows that a full 918 drains it's battery in under one lap of the 'ring. Battery drainage will be a performance issue for the 918 and P1 on circuits although for the LaFerrari it'll be more likely caused by leaving the lights on outside Harrods
Moose, while I don't know the ins and outs, and like you I don't believe in perpetual motion machines or free energy, what must not be forgotten is that most of the car's power is coming from the petrol engine, so if it is efficient at converting braking power into electrical energy, it is not at all an impossibility for the battery to maintain it's charge (overall) or increase it despite being used.
In less words you are using the battery together with the petrol engine to give energy to the car, but upon braking it is the COMBINED kinetic energy that is being returned to the battery ALONE. So the engine's "surplus" also covers losses.
In less words you are using the battery together with the petrol engine to give energy to the car, but upon braking it is the COMBINED kinetic energy that is being returned to the battery ALONE. So the engine's "surplus" also covers losses.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You are not turning the energy into heat if you are using it to recharge the batteries.Sorry if you already know this, but an electric motor which uses electric current (energy) to rotate and do useful work, will function in reverse, i.e. if you provide the rotational energy it will supply a current. It will resist rotating depending on the current one is attempting to draw from it.
This is how the car brakes, it's motors become generators providing braking force by charging the battery.
In case anyone may think that a generator producing current rotates freely and could not possibly provide any braking force - no need to go off topic, surely many of us have experienced very noisy slippage of an alternator pulley if one has a less than sufficiently tensioned drive belt, particularly just after starting the car when the battery is being charged at the peak rate. The alternator is braking so hard it causes the belt to slip.
As for wind resistance, as previous, you have most of the energy coming from the petrol engine, so this is covered.
Friends , Romans , Countrymen LEND ME YOUR EARS .
I apologise in advance for being somewhat drunk so if there is some gobbledigook among the text please bear with me .
Please remember the Carrera gt is my god and UNTILL I DROVE THE BUGGER I hated the idea of the 918 , hated it .
I have followed the 918 and P1 since day 1 . I have been lucky enough to meet engineers , experience the cars , ask questions , etc etc ( I am convinced they had me confused with someone else but I just went along with it ! Who wouldnt ?)
The 918 and P1 are in fact very similar . The thing is the 918 is superior in cooling of the batteries and energy recovery to the P1 imho . They both recover energy when lifting off the throttle and the engine can produce More power than you ask for to charge the battery . The difference is the 918 can also regenerate on the brakes ( a massive deal ) and in certain conditions I believe one of the 2 "electric machines " can be used as a generator .
So if the 918 suffers the P1 will suffer more .
I drove the 918 in the Race Hybrid *(1) setting . After 30 mins on track I had more power than when I started . The regeneration is amazing . In "hot lap " you are allowed to use more of the power more of the time and a higher percentage of e power can be used to complete a hot lap . You can theoretically run the battery dry in this mode but its easy enough to drop into a lower mode for certain portions of the track ( to regenerate more power ) if you deem it necessary . The full blown "hot lap mode " is worth less than 4 seconds over the entire lap of the ring .
If you look at Lieb he turns into a lower setting to regenerate more on the straight ( almost as if preparing for a second lap ) . I'd like to test/ask if it would have been faster to keep extra power for the straights and drop a little for more of the twistier bits . Remember lieb has publicly stated the car could have gone faster and he " did not push like a qualifying lap " and still shattered the production car record . FYI 3 drivers and 2 cars were used , ALL got below 7 . This shows the ability of this car .having said that , these cars are not magic and we will have to learn how to make the most of them .
The 918 has shattered the ring record , ironically this is the track where the relative lack of hard braking and long straights may no the the best match To the cars characteristics. Somewhere like SPA or Silverstone it will be a serious weapon . The braking zones and non 100 per cent throttle areas will allow the engine charging and the brake regeneration ( something the p1 cant do ) to work wonders . Im afraid to tell you my poor carrera gt would get annihilated . The car would be awesome ( like it was at leipzig ) putting down 900 pound feet of mostly instant torque , FIRING you out of corners with 4wd , 4ws and TV all working at once . It just changes everything .
Lets get onto another thing I do not have the vocabulary to express . The real world driving scenario . The car is shocking in the grip it generates , shocking .
I don't know about you but I go to trackdays either with a group of mates or to meet a group of mates in similar performing cars . The friendly competition , the banter and the fun are what makes a a trackday . Theres no fun in turning up to a track with a million pound car and going so much faster than your friends , that sounds just terribly boring to me ( and I'm sure the majority of you ).
Lets be honest these are ultimate cars , not JUST track cars .
Where the 918 will absolutely annihilate the competition is the real world . Bear with me here . Traction control systems and tyres have gone a long way in recent years but I defy you to tell me that a 2 wd car on real roads ( with their dodgy cambers , broken surfaces and full of civilians) can hold a candle to this monster in a saville row suit with 4wd , the most advanced torque vectoring ever seen , 4 wheel steering , and the ability to instantly fire all that torque to that amazing 4wd drive train . Just imagine what will happen in the wet , murder on the dance floor I tell you ! Murder !!!!!
The F12 already struggles with a mere hp figure of just over 700 , what will these 900 hp monsters be like ?as for recharging , on the road you will have more opportunity for regen as you won't be full throttle for as long or as often .
The Porsche is just the most well thought out car IMHO . I was down for a P1 but after going out in one recently I cancelled my order . Though fast and from some angles very good looking , It cant hold a candle to the 918 on build quality , engineering integrity , development , beauty or even ethos from what I have seen . The mac is in danger of becoming a one trick pony with a stripped out interior and is if I am brutally honest too close to a 12c for my liking .
The 918 is a bespoke , perfectly engineered jewel . It is Porsches Veyron , luxurious ( burmester sound system , leather , every mod con imaginable , etc etc ) and yet can be devastating on track . I believe cars of this price SHOULD be able to do everything . If you wanted to be JUST fast on track buy a 911 RSR . These supercars should be able to take you to the south of france , across europe , classic le mans and to meet your track or race car at spa or monza . The 918 can do this and is also a spyder when you want it to be , it really is a do it all car .
I dont know enough about La ferrari to comment but I soon will .
I truly do not understand how Mclaren charge so much more than a 918 for the P1 when it is undeniably so less bespoke .
I was told that "a couple of the p1 prototypes have done 15 000 miles " an amazing figure in this category of car , especially when spread across a few cars but then I heard the Porsche was over a million km and suddenly it didn't seem so impressive . I know the 918 will have gone through every test the humble boxster has had to endure , heat , dust , altitude , cold , crash , etc etc Im not so sure about the competition .
If you look through my early opinions of the 918 here and on teamspeed , I mock it as a glorified Prius . I am a complete convert now , If you want a do it all super sports car , it is the 918 spyder a gorgeous , perfectly engineered car , fast on track and on the road in all conditions . The fact that Porsche will support you as technology improves and batteries get lighter ( and more powerful !) is just the icing on the cake .
I think the systems on the LPM1 race car we will see soon will have a lot in common with this car .
Underestimate this car at your peril .
The 918 is a game changer , how stupid of me to doubt that it wouldn't be !
One more thing Porsche already made the perfect , manual , raw , drivers car in the carrera GT . If thats what you want , BUY ONE OF THEM !
I am at your service to answer any questions I can but I warn you my consumption of alcool is increasing at a geometric rate and things may get a little strange .
I apologise in advance for being somewhat drunk so if there is some gobbledigook among the text please bear with me .
Please remember the Carrera gt is my god and UNTILL I DROVE THE BUGGER I hated the idea of the 918 , hated it .
I have followed the 918 and P1 since day 1 . I have been lucky enough to meet engineers , experience the cars , ask questions , etc etc ( I am convinced they had me confused with someone else but I just went along with it ! Who wouldnt ?)
The 918 and P1 are in fact very similar . The thing is the 918 is superior in cooling of the batteries and energy recovery to the P1 imho . They both recover energy when lifting off the throttle and the engine can produce More power than you ask for to charge the battery . The difference is the 918 can also regenerate on the brakes ( a massive deal ) and in certain conditions I believe one of the 2 "electric machines " can be used as a generator .
So if the 918 suffers the P1 will suffer more .
I drove the 918 in the Race Hybrid *(1) setting . After 30 mins on track I had more power than when I started . The regeneration is amazing . In "hot lap " you are allowed to use more of the power more of the time and a higher percentage of e power can be used to complete a hot lap . You can theoretically run the battery dry in this mode but its easy enough to drop into a lower mode for certain portions of the track ( to regenerate more power ) if you deem it necessary . The full blown "hot lap mode " is worth less than 4 seconds over the entire lap of the ring .
If you look at Lieb he turns into a lower setting to regenerate more on the straight ( almost as if preparing for a second lap ) . I'd like to test/ask if it would have been faster to keep extra power for the straights and drop a little for more of the twistier bits . Remember lieb has publicly stated the car could have gone faster and he " did not push like a qualifying lap " and still shattered the production car record . FYI 3 drivers and 2 cars were used , ALL got below 7 . This shows the ability of this car .having said that , these cars are not magic and we will have to learn how to make the most of them .
The 918 has shattered the ring record , ironically this is the track where the relative lack of hard braking and long straights may no the the best match To the cars characteristics. Somewhere like SPA or Silverstone it will be a serious weapon . The braking zones and non 100 per cent throttle areas will allow the engine charging and the brake regeneration ( something the p1 cant do ) to work wonders . Im afraid to tell you my poor carrera gt would get annihilated . The car would be awesome ( like it was at leipzig ) putting down 900 pound feet of mostly instant torque , FIRING you out of corners with 4wd , 4ws and TV all working at once . It just changes everything .
Lets get onto another thing I do not have the vocabulary to express . The real world driving scenario . The car is shocking in the grip it generates , shocking .
I don't know about you but I go to trackdays either with a group of mates or to meet a group of mates in similar performing cars . The friendly competition , the banter and the fun are what makes a a trackday . Theres no fun in turning up to a track with a million pound car and going so much faster than your friends , that sounds just terribly boring to me ( and I'm sure the majority of you ).
Lets be honest these are ultimate cars , not JUST track cars .
Where the 918 will absolutely annihilate the competition is the real world . Bear with me here . Traction control systems and tyres have gone a long way in recent years but I defy you to tell me that a 2 wd car on real roads ( with their dodgy cambers , broken surfaces and full of civilians) can hold a candle to this monster in a saville row suit with 4wd , the most advanced torque vectoring ever seen , 4 wheel steering , and the ability to instantly fire all that torque to that amazing 4wd drive train . Just imagine what will happen in the wet , murder on the dance floor I tell you ! Murder !!!!!
The F12 already struggles with a mere hp figure of just over 700 , what will these 900 hp monsters be like ?as for recharging , on the road you will have more opportunity for regen as you won't be full throttle for as long or as often .
The Porsche is just the most well thought out car IMHO . I was down for a P1 but after going out in one recently I cancelled my order . Though fast and from some angles very good looking , It cant hold a candle to the 918 on build quality , engineering integrity , development , beauty or even ethos from what I have seen . The mac is in danger of becoming a one trick pony with a stripped out interior and is if I am brutally honest too close to a 12c for my liking .
The 918 is a bespoke , perfectly engineered jewel . It is Porsches Veyron , luxurious ( burmester sound system , leather , every mod con imaginable , etc etc ) and yet can be devastating on track . I believe cars of this price SHOULD be able to do everything . If you wanted to be JUST fast on track buy a 911 RSR . These supercars should be able to take you to the south of france , across europe , classic le mans and to meet your track or race car at spa or monza . The 918 can do this and is also a spyder when you want it to be , it really is a do it all car .
I dont know enough about La ferrari to comment but I soon will .
I truly do not understand how Mclaren charge so much more than a 918 for the P1 when it is undeniably so less bespoke .
I was told that "a couple of the p1 prototypes have done 15 000 miles " an amazing figure in this category of car , especially when spread across a few cars but then I heard the Porsche was over a million km and suddenly it didn't seem so impressive . I know the 918 will have gone through every test the humble boxster has had to endure , heat , dust , altitude , cold , crash , etc etc Im not so sure about the competition .
If you look through my early opinions of the 918 here and on teamspeed , I mock it as a glorified Prius . I am a complete convert now , If you want a do it all super sports car , it is the 918 spyder a gorgeous , perfectly engineered car , fast on track and on the road in all conditions . The fact that Porsche will support you as technology improves and batteries get lighter ( and more powerful !) is just the icing on the cake .
I think the systems on the LPM1 race car we will see soon will have a lot in common with this car .
Underestimate this car at your peril .
The 918 is a game changer , how stupid of me to doubt that it wouldn't be !
One more thing Porsche already made the perfect , manual , raw , drivers car in the carrera GT . If thats what you want , BUY ONE OF THEM !
I am at your service to answer any questions I can but I warn you my consumption of alcool is increasing at a geometric rate and things may get a little strange .
- (1) RACE HYBRID SETTING :
- (2)HOT LAP SETTING :
Edited by wtdoom on Monday 16th September 02:14
if toyota can make a super capacitor last the whole 24hrs of le mans without having to charge it up from the mains then I'm sure Porsche can make a road cars battery last for a track day. remember that a super capacitor discharges at a much higher rate than a conventional lithium ion battery as in the porsche.
graemel said:
WTDoom. Have you driven the Veyron Super Sport. Would be interested to read your views. As far as I am aware it has never been hammered aroud the ring and I know Bugatti never envisaged it being a track weapon anyway. Just a thought.
I have driven a "regular(?)" veyron and it was very good . It's so well made , gorgeous thing .Unfortunately I did not drive it nearly hard enough to be able to comment on its track performance .
I'm willing to take one for the team though and do so if someone wants to sort one out?
wtdoom said:
lots of good stuff
Very interesting, many thanks for writing that and hope you enjoyed your drinks as much as I did reading the above 
. Not that I am in the market for either car (sadly..) but it is quite sufficient I can sort of live vicariously through others experiences of these machines! Just a question or 2 if you don't mind me asking.. If I read corectly, you mainly only drove the 918 on track but drove the p1 on the road. How did the P1 compare to say the 12c (which I believe you own one) and indeed the 918 as a car purely to enjoy driving on the road? Mclaren's main selling point on the P1 has been the aero but one does need to be going pretty quick to have any kind of feel for the downforce working on the car. And while the 918 with awd/4ws/etc will undoubtedly be crushingly quick on a country b road... but will it be too powerful/grippy to enjoy without being in (even more than usual) constant fear of being detained at her majesty's leisure for a very long period?
I have been very lucky in being able to drive a cgt for a fairly extended period and the car was an absolute joy to drive even when not pushing on to anything like the limit of it's capability, a bit like a gt3 in that respect but far more intense I would say (a gt3 on crack was how I described it to a friend after getting out...).. with all the electronics sitting behind the 918 to allow the performance, would it not in some respects take away some of the enjoyment of driving the car and turn it into something much more like a 911 turbo which I have to admit I found pretty bland while admittedly damned quick rather than a gt3/cgt type car?
Interesting to read about the different modes. If the only issue was that it was done in 'Hot Lap' mode and that discharged the battery and using other modes are only slightly slower (4 secs at the ring is nothing) then it seems like the concerns raised in my first post don't really apply to the 918.
Of course, whether they apply to the others with smaller batteries and less re-charge ability only time will tell.
Of course, whether they apply to the others with smaller batteries and less re-charge ability only time will tell.
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