Speeding in Richmond Park
Discussion
Steve vRS said:
Is there a law against speeding on a bike?
Steve
Not in Richmond Park it would seem.Steve
Article said:
Or does it? The regulations applying to Royal Parks were amended in 2010, and in that statutory instrument, ‘vehicle’ was defined as “a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on a road.”
The regulations did not previously have a definition of a vehicle so were interpreted to apply to bikes as well as cars and motorbikes.
The new definition is the exact phrase used to define a motor vehicle in the Road Traffic Act, so on a layman’s interpretation at least, it could be argued that the Richmond Park speed limit doesn’t apply to bikes after all. If you're curious, BikeHub has lots on cycling and speed limits, and other legal matters.
The regulations did not previously have a definition of a vehicle so were interpreted to apply to bikes as well as cars and motorbikes.
The new definition is the exact phrase used to define a motor vehicle in the Road Traffic Act, so on a layman’s interpretation at least, it could be argued that the Richmond Park speed limit doesn’t apply to bikes after all. If you're curious, BikeHub has lots on cycling and speed limits, and other legal matters.
Apparently, in 'the eyes of the law' the speed limits on a public highway only apply to mechanically propelled vehicles - so technically cycles fall outside of the category. I gleaned this info from a friend who is a traffic Bib, so don't flame me if it is wrong, or if I have interpreted it incorrectly!
However, local bylaws imposed by private land owners, or local councils can be at odds with the law of the land, I would assume these then become civil cases so quite how difficult they are to enforce I am not sure of.
I just hope that they don't start looking at Strava times on RP otherwise a few people will be in for a 6 month custodial sentence....
I guess it depends on the Bib in question, I got a thumbs up from a member of the parks police in Windsor Great Park for hitting 39 mph (according to his radar gun/led sign at the side of the road) coming down the hill from the polo fields.....road in question was 20 mph....
However, local bylaws imposed by private land owners, or local councils can be at odds with the law of the land, I would assume these then become civil cases so quite how difficult they are to enforce I am not sure of.
I just hope that they don't start looking at Strava times on RP otherwise a few people will be in for a 6 month custodial sentence....
I guess it depends on the Bib in question, I got a thumbs up from a member of the parks police in Windsor Great Park for hitting 39 mph (according to his radar gun/led sign at the side of the road) coming down the hill from the polo fields.....road in question was 20 mph....
Being as how speed limits do not apply to bicycles on the public highway, and there is no requirement for a bicycle to be fitted with a speedometer of any kind, how the flying feck can any speed limit anywhere, private or not, be enforceable?
"I'm sorry officer, I have absolutely no idea how fast I was going, as I have no reliable means of measuring my speed. Furthermore, as there is no requirement for my bicycle to be fitted with such a device, you have no case against me."
Typical of modern Britain really. People get stabbed for a copy of GTA V, yet the magistrates on the bench have nothing more pressing to do than sentence some kid for riding too fast in a place that's a mecca for people who, you've guessed it, want to ride fast.
As an aside, the last barracks I served on had an over-zealous MTO. He wanted any military personnel caught speeding on the MOD estate to face the full extent of the (Military) Law. The Commandant wasn't sure this was necessary, but he indulged the MTO by borrowing one of those machines that flashes up your actual speed. During the working day a 'sentry' was posted to note the VRNs of 'law breakers, but the machine was eventually taken away, because rather too high a percentage of those caught speeding were Officers and Warrant Officers/Senior NCOs. One of those names that went before the Commandant was the MTO himself
Before the machine was returned to wherever it came from, some of us who cycled regularly were caught 'playing' with the machine, doing short laps and attempting to best each other. The Regimental Triathlon Team even used it for a training session.
I also recall a village in Essex that had one which displayed your speed, alternating with a smiley face for legal speeds and a red 'sad' face for excessive speeds. I may have turned around for another run at it a few times when it recorded my speed at ~28mph. My highest recorded speed at the spot was 38mph when it was quiet. There were a couple more sensors that simply reminded speeders of the 30mph limit on the entrance to villages on my regular route, and I always tried to set them buggers off, and was disappointed if I didn't. I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
"I'm sorry officer, I have absolutely no idea how fast I was going, as I have no reliable means of measuring my speed. Furthermore, as there is no requirement for my bicycle to be fitted with such a device, you have no case against me."
Typical of modern Britain really. People get stabbed for a copy of GTA V, yet the magistrates on the bench have nothing more pressing to do than sentence some kid for riding too fast in a place that's a mecca for people who, you've guessed it, want to ride fast.
As an aside, the last barracks I served on had an over-zealous MTO. He wanted any military personnel caught speeding on the MOD estate to face the full extent of the (Military) Law. The Commandant wasn't sure this was necessary, but he indulged the MTO by borrowing one of those machines that flashes up your actual speed. During the working day a 'sentry' was posted to note the VRNs of 'law breakers, but the machine was eventually taken away, because rather too high a percentage of those caught speeding were Officers and Warrant Officers/Senior NCOs. One of those names that went before the Commandant was the MTO himself
Before the machine was returned to wherever it came from, some of us who cycled regularly were caught 'playing' with the machine, doing short laps and attempting to best each other. The Regimental Triathlon Team even used it for a training session.I also recall a village in Essex that had one which displayed your speed, alternating with a smiley face for legal speeds and a red 'sad' face for excessive speeds. I may have turned around for another run at it a few times when it recorded my speed at ~28mph. My highest recorded speed at the spot was 38mph when it was quiet. There were a couple more sensors that simply reminded speeders of the 30mph limit on the entrance to villages on my regular route, and I always tried to set them buggers off, and was disappointed if I didn't. I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
daddy cool said:
yellowjack said:
I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
You and me both. If anyone knows one in/around Bracknell, let me know!
yellowjack said:
I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
They do (37ish in a 30 in Saltford going from Bristol - Bath, 3 times 
), but only if you have something reflective on your back 
They've changed the camera now so it doesn't flash 
yellowjack said:
I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
It does if you have something reflective - my hump cover does - 37 mph through Ings. Edited by geordieracer on Friday 20th September 08:45
Have had one of our group pulled over and told off in RP. My understanding is that while in general speed limits do not apply to bikes (only the old 'pedalling furiously' line), that the byelaws under which the RP limit is enacted are different, and rather broader in scope. Don't know exact details tho.
upsidedownmark said:
Have had one of our group pulled over and told off in RP. My understanding is that while in general speed limits do not apply to bikes (only the old 'pedalling furiously' line), that the byelaws under which the RP limit is enacted are different, and rather broader in scope. Don't know exact details tho.
I fully understand the 'byelaws are different' line, but still can't see how it's possible to enforce such nonsense...Policeman: "Do you know how fast you were travelling, sir?"
Cyclist: "Sorry officer, I have absolutely no idea."
Policeman: "25mph, which is above the limit for vehicles in the park"
Cyclist: "How interesting. I had no idea I was capable of propelling a bicycle at that dizzying velocity. I'm ever so sorry. I shall try to control my pace in future, but in the absence of an accurate speed recording device, I can't promise anything."
...it all appears to hinge upon the definition of vehicle, and while the authorities in RP may wish to interpret the legal definition their way, any prosecution would have to be dealt with by courts operating under the 'normal' UK justice system, so surely that means a bicycle is NOT a mechanically propelled vehicle, and therefore the speed limit does not apply, and the case should have been dismissed.
In the UK a cyclist cannot, in a legally defined sense, be guilty of the offence of "Exceeding the posted speed limit". Instead, prosecution of cyclsts for 'speeding' is done using "Reckless" or "Dangerous" riding legislation. Very few are prosecuted because these offences require a greater degree of investigation because a simple recording of the miscreant's speed is not considered sufficient in and of itself, and the Police would rightly be criticised for expending man hours and resources on such a case unless it was a case of quite blatant and truly dangerous behaviour by the cyclist.
Even if the byelaws where altered to include bicycles in the scope of park speed limits, how can you prosecute a road user who has no method of assessing his/her speed other than the sound of the wind rushing past their ears? I know many riders do have a cycle computer/GPS but these items are not legally required to be fitted to a pedal cycle. Anyway, I'm sure the purpose of the byelaws and speed limits in RP was initially meant for the prevention of vehicle accidents involving the Deer herds, etc. A cyclist is almost guaranteed to come off worst in a collision with such a large animal. Ultimately, though, is it just about recording and solving another crime in one swoop, ticking a box, and justifying their existence? Have they not got any 'real' crimes to fight?
. yellowjack said:
Policeman: "Do you know how fast you were travelling, sir?"
Cyclist: "Sorry officer, I have absolutely no idea."
Policeman: "25mph, which is above the limit for vehicles in the park"
Cyclist: "How interesting. I had no idea I was capable of propelling a bicycle at that dizzying velocity. I'm ever so sorry. I shall try to control my pace in future, but in the absence of an accurate speed recording device, I can't promise anything."
Policeman: "Oh, really, what's that garmin on your bike for then?"
Cyclist: "Ummmmmmm"
EFA Cyclist: "Sorry officer, I have absolutely no idea."
Policeman: "25mph, which is above the limit for vehicles in the park"
Cyclist: "How interesting. I had no idea I was capable of propelling a bicycle at that dizzying velocity. I'm ever so sorry. I shall try to control my pace in future, but in the absence of an accurate speed recording device, I can't promise anything."
Policeman: "Oh, really, what's that garmin on your bike for then?"
Cyclist: "Ummmmmmm"
I got pulled over in Swindon a few weeks back, after a couple of high profile deaths they were keen to educate public.
Filtered past a undercover police car, went through the red (I should have waited & usually do)
They then followed me down old town hill and I hit 43 in a 30!
They then pulled me over and I got a proper b
king and as they were traffic they showed me the video evidence of it all! I think they presumed I'd get all arsey, but what they said was right and it was too fast for conditions and I shouldn't have gone through a red . They advised that I could be prosecuted by a magistrate the following week , especially as the evidence was so clear cut, but they let me off, we had a decent chat then I was on my way.
Filtered past a undercover police car, went through the red (I should have waited & usually do)
They then followed me down old town hill and I hit 43 in a 30!
They then pulled me over and I got a proper b
king and as they were traffic they showed me the video evidence of it all! I think they presumed I'd get all arsey, but what they said was right and it was too fast for conditions and I shouldn't have gone through a red . They advised that I could be prosecuted by a magistrate the following week , especially as the evidence was so clear cut, but they let me off, we had a decent chat then I was on my way.daddy cool said:
yellowjack said:
I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
You and me both. If anyone knows one in/around Bracknell, let me know!TwistingMyMelon said:
daddy cool said:
yellowjack said:
I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
You and me both. If anyone knows one in/around Bracknell, let me know!princeperch said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
daddy cool said:
yellowjack said:
I'm still looking for a Gatso on a downhill stretch so I can experiment to find out if a cyclist will set one off, but I haven't found the right one yet.
You and me both. If anyone knows one in/around Bracknell, let me know!there was a high viz'd vested official screaming at everyone to slow down though just before!!
yellowjack said:
I fully understand the 'byelaws are different' line, but still can't see how it's possible to enforce such nonsense...
Even if the byelaws where altered to include bicycles in the scope of park speed limits, how can you prosecute a road user who has no method of assessing his/her speed other than the sound of the wind rushing past their ears? I know many riders do have a cycle computer/GPS but these items are not legally required to be fitted to a pedal cycle. Anyway, I'm sure the purpose of the byelaws and speed limits in RP was initially meant for the prevention of vehicle accidents involving the Deer herds, etc. A cyclist is almost guaranteed to come off worst in a collision with such a large animal. Ultimately, though, is it just about recording and solving another crime in one swoop, ticking a box, and justifying their existence? Have they not got any 'real' crimes to fight? .
Erm.. last time I checked, ignorance is not a legal defence - you could just go slowly enough to be sure Even if the byelaws where altered to include bicycles in the scope of park speed limits, how can you prosecute a road user who has no method of assessing his/her speed other than the sound of the wind rushing past their ears? I know many riders do have a cycle computer/GPS but these items are not legally required to be fitted to a pedal cycle. Anyway, I'm sure the purpose of the byelaws and speed limits in RP was initially meant for the prevention of vehicle accidents involving the Deer herds, etc. A cyclist is almost guaranteed to come off worst in a collision with such a large animal. Ultimately, though, is it just about recording and solving another crime in one swoop, ticking a box, and justifying their existence? Have they not got any 'real' crimes to fight?
. Frankly I can see a lot of good reasons for the 20 limit in richmond park applying to bikes, dare I say more than cars. Look at those nice little stubby posts by the side of the road - now imagine what happens if you come off at 40+ and slide into one (people have). People have also been airlifted out after going through the back window of cars that braked to look at the deer. Daft on both parts that, but still.
I say all of this as someone who regularly travels within the park at some pretty large numbers of leptons, and on my own head be it - whatever the reasons, as far as I'm aware it's one of the few places I could be 'done'. Frankly the place is complete carnage a lot of the time, and best avoided for serious riding except early/late, or when the weather's horrible
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