997 Turbo - Is tiptronic really that bad?
Discussion
I am in the market for a 997 Gen 1 Turbo. I would like an auto really, but there seems to be a big divide between Tiptronic fans and haters.
My usage: long motorway miles, but I also want an involving car when the mood takes me. I know the gearbox is not as good as double clutches like the PDK or Ferrari ones - but this is clearly not in the same budget.
Please could we keep on topic and I would really appreciate your views if you have owned a Tip and what it has been like.
Do you think it will really hurt residuals in 2/3 years time?
Huge thanks in advance!
My usage: long motorway miles, but I also want an involving car when the mood takes me. I know the gearbox is not as good as double clutches like the PDK or Ferrari ones - but this is clearly not in the same budget.
Please could we keep on topic and I would really appreciate your views if you have owned a Tip and what it has been like.
Do you think it will really hurt residuals in 2/3 years time?
Huge thanks in advance!
markmullen said:
They're usually slightly cheaper than manuals, and will stay that way.
For what you want the tip will be fine, you sum it up when you say not as good as PDK, but a nice thing to use every day.
Thanks very much. Have you had a Tip turbo before then? Did you ever find the gearbox a problem?For what you want the tip will be fine, you sum it up when you say not as good as PDK, but a nice thing to use every day.
I owned a 997.1 Turbo Cab Tip for over 3 years (Turbo Cabs and manual were very rare I believe) and found it to be fine....it's not as good as PDK as you say (although I found that took a little time to get used to) but it is fine, and for cruising will be good.
You can still have some fun with it, and (IIRC) it is marginally quicker to 60 than a manual......
I know a lot of people hate the tip but when I asked some they'd never driven one, just didn't like the concept.....
You can still have some fun with it, and (IIRC) it is marginally quicker to 60 than a manual......
I know a lot of people hate the tip but when I asked some they'd never driven one, just didn't like the concept.....
Thanks uuf361. I have not found it that bad when test driven - sure it's partly because some people don't like it when on the out and out burn up on a sunday morning, but just think for most of the time it will be the preferred choice.
Seems to be fine when going for it, but then quite chilled when you're not.
Thanks for the info
Seems to be fine when going for it, but then quite chilled when you're not.
Thanks for the info
458carbon said:
Thanks very much. Have you had a Tip turbo before then? Did you ever find the gearbox a problem?
Er, just one or two....!Check my profile and you'll see how.
Never had any real problems with tip, had a lady in this afternoon with a Boxster that had a tiptronic switch issue but that wasn't a huge cost.
markmullen said:
Er, just one or two....!
Check my profile and you'll see how.
Never had any real problems with tip, had a lady in this afternoon with a Boxster that had a tiptronic switch issue but that wasn't a huge cost.
Haha, seems like the perfect guy to ask then.....Check my profile and you'll see how.
Never had any real problems with tip, had a lady in this afternoon with a Boxster that had a tiptronic switch issue but that wasn't a huge cost.
Do you find the upshifts and downshifts that sluggish or fine when used to it?
I owned a 996 non-turbo Tip for 4 years.
It seemed to be the perfect solution for me - 150 mile round-trip commute for me when the weather was nice, into London, hence the tip being great for London traffic.
Then can switch the gears manually at weekends whilst out on hoons.
The love affair started well, but soon waned. Yeah, it was good for London traffic.
For hoons - next to useless. The main bugbear was asking for a downchange into a committed turn - i.e. hard on the brakes, light rear getting a bit squiffy, wanting to get it into gear, throw it in, use the weight over the rear to turn the car, then get onto the gas to square the turn and prevent too much of a lurid slide. But computer says no. Hence, your attention is then distracted by the gearbox, the turn is ruined, and the frustration builds on what is supposed to be a fun outing.
And then there were the breakdowns. Without going into a huge diatribe - the damned box was out and back into the car a total of 7 times because it kept failing. Most of the faults were with the torque converter refusing to lock up - but there were other problems with slipping clutches, dodgy valve bodies, overheating...you name it. Total cost of gearbox woe over 4 years - I would estimate 10 months off the road in total, and a bill of over 5 grand. And to be honest, it still wasn't right when I sold it on (in disgust).
You may not have a similar issue on the Turbo cars, because the facelift Carreras and Turbos all used the later Mercedes tiptronic box - mine was a ZF.
However, I am not convinced that the Tips are fit for purpose when using the car truly flat-out in a very fast road / track situation. From what we could gather, both from the net and speaking to specialists, the Tip box is such a big unit, shoe-horned into such a tight space under the cars, with limited air-flow and especially when trying to get it to transmit all the power continuously to a 4wd drive-train, that the heat build-up is massive, it has difficulty in dissipating (due to the huge, hot lump of an engine right behind it) and hence the heat starts to degrade the internals, way before it might do in a different car.
For example, the early Audi RS6's used the same ZF-5HP 19/24 gearboxes, but my auto gearbox specialist (who used to look after all the Palmersport tiptronic 911's at Bedford) hardly saw any Audis in with similar problems to the same gearboxes as fitted to the 911's.
Weird.
Anyway - up to you, personally I wouldn't consider it.
It seemed to be the perfect solution for me - 150 mile round-trip commute for me when the weather was nice, into London, hence the tip being great for London traffic.
Then can switch the gears manually at weekends whilst out on hoons.
The love affair started well, but soon waned. Yeah, it was good for London traffic.
For hoons - next to useless. The main bugbear was asking for a downchange into a committed turn - i.e. hard on the brakes, light rear getting a bit squiffy, wanting to get it into gear, throw it in, use the weight over the rear to turn the car, then get onto the gas to square the turn and prevent too much of a lurid slide. But computer says no. Hence, your attention is then distracted by the gearbox, the turn is ruined, and the frustration builds on what is supposed to be a fun outing.
And then there were the breakdowns. Without going into a huge diatribe - the damned box was out and back into the car a total of 7 times because it kept failing. Most of the faults were with the torque converter refusing to lock up - but there were other problems with slipping clutches, dodgy valve bodies, overheating...you name it. Total cost of gearbox woe over 4 years - I would estimate 10 months off the road in total, and a bill of over 5 grand. And to be honest, it still wasn't right when I sold it on (in disgust).
You may not have a similar issue on the Turbo cars, because the facelift Carreras and Turbos all used the later Mercedes tiptronic box - mine was a ZF.
However, I am not convinced that the Tips are fit for purpose when using the car truly flat-out in a very fast road / track situation. From what we could gather, both from the net and speaking to specialists, the Tip box is such a big unit, shoe-horned into such a tight space under the cars, with limited air-flow and especially when trying to get it to transmit all the power continuously to a 4wd drive-train, that the heat build-up is massive, it has difficulty in dissipating (due to the huge, hot lump of an engine right behind it) and hence the heat starts to degrade the internals, way before it might do in a different car.
For example, the early Audi RS6's used the same ZF-5HP 19/24 gearboxes, but my auto gearbox specialist (who used to look after all the Palmersport tiptronic 911's at Bedford) hardly saw any Audis in with similar problems to the same gearboxes as fitted to the 911's.
Weird.
Anyway - up to you, personally I wouldn't consider it.
Freddy88FM said:
For me the tip is just too stupid and too sluggish. It's fine for pottering around bit gets on your nerves when you want a bit of fun.
If the budget can stretch to a 997.2 with PDK you won't regret it.
Can't stretch that far unfortunately. Have you driven a Gen1 turbo with tip or was it a C2/S/4S? Only asking as some say it's not as bad because of the greater torque on offer with the turbo.If the budget can stretch to a 997.2 with PDK you won't regret it.
Thanks
458carbon said:
Can't stretch that far unfortunately. Have you driven a Gen1 turbo with tip or was it a C2/S/4S? Only asking as some say it's not as bad because of the greater torque on offer with the turbo.
Thanks
In my experience of 911 s the 7 speed double clutch PDK is literally light years ahead of the "slushbox" 5 speed single clutch tiptronics. But that does not make the tips bad boxes. They are totally in character with the Gen 1 997 and reasonably reliable as well. Yes, the awkward thumb change is hard work but no different in principle to the awkwardness with the PDK change if you spec the multi function wheel on the latest 991.Thanks
IF you are adamant that you must have a Gen 1 997 turbo tip, then fine but I would go for as later model as possible having the better touchscreen NAV and matt black switchgear as compared with the earlier "playstation grey" plastics. The former ran from late 08 to mid 09.
If you felt the need for a PDK gearbox, you could get into a gen 2 Carrera or Carrera s (dont know your budget?), the latter of which would certainly be my preference over a Turbo in terms of 911 driver appeal.
458carbon said:
Can't stretch that far unfortunately. Have you driven a Gen1 turbo with tip or was it a C2/S/4S? Only asking as some say it's not as bad because of the greater torque on offer with the turbo.
Thanks
I've only driven the turbo with tip. I found that the stupid box combined with the turbo lag was a ball ache. If gen 2 is impossible then you won't regret manual gen 1.Thanks
That said, for motorway munching a tip gen 1 is fine. Just don't expect to love it in the twistes...
Freddy88FM said:
I've only driven the turbo with tip. I found that the stupid box combined with the turbo lag was a ball ache. If gen 2 is impossible then you won't regret manual gen 1.
That said, for motorway munching a tip gen 1 is fine. Just don't expect to love it in the twistes...
Thanks Freddy for the comments. It's a little bad though as I am almost committed to a Gen 1 Tip Turbo now. Did you have the car for a while?That said, for motorway munching a tip gen 1 is fine. Just don't expect to love it in the twistes...
Bought what's probably one of the last gen 1 turbos back in Feb, and tbh probably only looked at the car as it seemed very cheap in comparison to everything else in the dealer network, as I'd been set on a manual - it was the first and only tip I looked at
Nearly £8k had been knocked off the price while the car was in stock, and it had the benefit of PCM3 sat nav which was a real bonus. Thought it would be worth a look as I was about to walk away from a deal on a manual at another OPC, due to some underhand tactics on their part. Liked the test drive, so the deal was done..
Any regrets about choosing the tip? Nope, seems to suit the dual nature of the Turbo perfectly, as it can be a pretty relaxed drive when you want, and sharpens up a bit when driven harder - sports chrono plus is essential. Living in London as well probably made the Tip the better choice. Now done about 5k miles in the car, which includes trips up to Scotland and a few trips to Wales, and had the car into the Brecon Beacons a few times - other than the box anticpating the wrong gear when downshifting on a pretty spirited drive, no real complaints - tend to put it into manual mode, although as said it does have some limitations.
Nearly £8k had been knocked off the price while the car was in stock, and it had the benefit of PCM3 sat nav which was a real bonus. Thought it would be worth a look as I was about to walk away from a deal on a manual at another OPC, due to some underhand tactics on their part. Liked the test drive, so the deal was done..
Any regrets about choosing the tip? Nope, seems to suit the dual nature of the Turbo perfectly, as it can be a pretty relaxed drive when you want, and sharpens up a bit when driven harder - sports chrono plus is essential. Living in London as well probably made the Tip the better choice. Now done about 5k miles in the car, which includes trips up to Scotland and a few trips to Wales, and had the car into the Brecon Beacons a few times - other than the box anticpating the wrong gear when downshifting on a pretty spirited drive, no real complaints - tend to put it into manual mode, although as said it does have some limitations.
hoegaardenruls said:
Bought what's probably one of the last gen 1 turbos back in Feb, and tbh probably only looked at the car as it seemed very cheap in comparison to everything else in the dealer network, as I'd been set on a manual - it was the first and only tip I looked at
Nearly £8k had been knocked off the price while the car was in stock, and it had the benefit of PCM3 sat nav which was a real bonus. Thought it would be worth a look as I was about to walk away from a deal on a manual at another OPC, due to some underhand tactics on their part. Liked the test drive, so the deal was done..
Any regrets about choosing the tip? Nope, seems to suit the dual nature of the Turbo perfectly, as it can be a pretty relaxed drive when you want, and sharpens up a bit when driven harder - sports chrono plus is essential. Living in London as well probably made the Tip the better choice. Now done about 5k miles in the car, which includes trips up to Scotland and a few trips to Wales, and had the car into the Brecon Beacons a few times - other than the box anticpating the wrong gear when downshifting on a pretty spirited drive, no real complaints - tend to put it into manual mode, although as said it does have some limitations.
Just the kind of summary I was looking for so thanks a lot for that. Sounds like you've used it in all road conditions and that you're happy with it. Agreed sport chrono is a must.Nearly £8k had been knocked off the price while the car was in stock, and it had the benefit of PCM3 sat nav which was a real bonus. Thought it would be worth a look as I was about to walk away from a deal on a manual at another OPC, due to some underhand tactics on their part. Liked the test drive, so the deal was done..
Any regrets about choosing the tip? Nope, seems to suit the dual nature of the Turbo perfectly, as it can be a pretty relaxed drive when you want, and sharpens up a bit when driven harder - sports chrono plus is essential. Living in London as well probably made the Tip the better choice. Now done about 5k miles in the car, which includes trips up to Scotland and a few trips to Wales, and had the car into the Brecon Beacons a few times - other than the box anticpating the wrong gear when downshifting on a pretty spirited drive, no real complaints - tend to put it into manual mode, although as said it does have some limitations.
The ones I am looking at don't have PCM3 as they are earlier cars, which is a shame - the 3 does look much more modern, lucky you.
Thanks again for the info - appreciated.
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