I want a Defender!

[abbotsmike]

I'll admit this is mostly a pipe dream for the moment, but I have a yearning for a defender, preferably a 90. Realistically, what is the lowest money I'm likely to be able to find one, decent condition, 2000 or later (so TD5) and not moon mileage? I know prices are strong, but I'm not sure where the line between good price and dreamer seller lies.

Wanted one for years after being run around the country on scout trips, and been driven into twice recently after people apparently neglected to see me, so wondering if it's a good time to scratch the itch!

[300bhp/ton]

abbotsmike said:

I'll admit this is mostly a pipe dream for the moment, but I have a yearning for a defender, preferably a 90. Realistically, what is the lowest money I'm likely to be able to find one, decent condition, 2000 or later (so TD5) and not moon mileage? I know prices are strong, but I'm not sure where the line between good price and dreamer seller lies.

Wanted one for years after being run around the country on scout trips, and been driven into twice recently after people apparently neglected to see me, so wondering if it's a good time to scratch the itch!

I suppose it's worth asking what in your opinion would constitute "decent condition"? The World of Land Rovers is vast and varied and peoples opinions of such things will differ wildly.

And also why 2000 or a Td5? Not saying it's wrong or anything like that. Just curious, as in reality there has been so little change over the years, that it's really not always worth the bother to try and get newer unless you have a specific reason.

Also do seriously consider a Discovery 1 or Range Rover Classic. Yes, I know they don't look the same. But in reality the mechanical bits and the under body bits are either very similar or identical. All a Discovery 1 really is, is a slightly more comfy with more interior space Defender and slightly different visual looks. But it's just as rugged and capable.

[abbotsmike]

300bhp/ton said:

I suppose it's worth asking what in your opinion would constitute "decent condition"? The World of Land Rovers is vast and varied and peoples opinions of such things will differ wildly.

And also why 2000 or a Td5? Not saying it's wrong or anything like that. Just curious, as in reality there has been so little change over the years, that it's really not always worth the bother to try and get newer unless you have a specific reason.

Also do seriously consider a Discovery 1 or Range Rover Classic. Yes, I know they don't look the same. But in reality the mechanical bits and the under body bits are either very similar or identical. All a Discovery 1 really is, is a slightly more comfy with more interior space Defender and slightly different visual looks. But it's just as rugged and capable.

Having spent an equally large amount of time in a Discovery, I do keep considering them too. However, they aren't as noticeably cheaper than defenders, which I used to have in my head that they were. I do however keep offering to buy one of the other leaders L reg discover off him when he gets rid!

TD5 because I'm not sure I could cope with anything slower. Although I thought the tdi's were massively down on power, and that appears to be wrong! 2000 because I just don't want anything much older really. No real logic, just like there's no logic in the though train of "I want a defender!"

Decent condition? No structural rot, most body panels still mostly the right shape! Mechanically sound too.

[300bhp/ton]

abbotsmike said:

Having spent an equally large amount of time in a Discovery, I do keep considering them too. However, they aren't as noticeably cheaper than defenders, which I used to have in my head that they were. I do however keep offering to buy one of the other leaders L reg discover off him when he gets rid!

TD5 because I'm not sure I could cope with anything slower. Although I thought the tdi's were massively down on power, and that appears to be wrong! 2000 because I just don't want anything much older really. No real logic, just like there's no logic in the though train of "I want a defender!"

Discovery's represent a massive VFM over a Defender. For instance my brother's girl friend recently bought a very nice Td5 Disco for £1000. A similar condition and age Defender would likely set you back £7-8k.

Disco 3's aren't far of £7k for an early one.

That said, as Defenders hold their value well, it does mean they make good longer term investments and you'll get most of your money back should you decide to move on.


Re: performance.

The Td5 is dynamically a better motor and it does make slightly more power in stock trim and it is quite tunable. But in reality the performance difference really isn't that big vs the Tdi's. The Tdi's can also be tuned too. And then there are V8 options as well.

Best bet is probably to drive a couple and see what you think. And while they may be slow against a stop watch, they'll feel more than fast enough on the roads and have more than enough grunt to overtake under most reasonable situations.

abbotsmike said:

Decent condition? No structural rot, most body panels still mostly the right shape! Mechanically sound too.

They all leak. Water in and oil out. Be warned if you aren't used to vehicles of this ilk.

Just remember everything is replaceable or repairable on them. The chassis can suffer rust issues, but can often be patched and welded, this is quite normal in the Landy world and nothing to worry about.

They can clonk and make noises, usually this will be a bush or a ball joint. All are fairly cheap and fairly easy to replace. Again I wouldn't worry too much about this type of thing.

[abbotsmike]

The one I have spent most time in is permanently grubby, 1 owner from new, done 170k and on an S plate. I still love it! But yes, first hand experience of the water in issues!

Girlfriend would probably be a lot more open to a disco as well, which always helps... Food for thought!

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

Disco 1 & 2 are big, bouncy but above all grotty rot boxes alongside their Defender cousins of the same vintage and the D1 especially is more dated than the Ark of the Covenant.

That's either rather unfair on the Disco, or said in complete denail of what a Defender is

The Disco is as wide as a Defender is at the wheel arches, they have the same track and width axles. The Disco is marginally longer.

And considering it rides on pretty much identical suspension to a Defender it is no more bouncy than one.

A Disco tends to rot less in the chassis than a Defender too. As for being dated... have you not looked inside a Defender!!!

Crossflow Kid said:

They're also less desirable so the chances of finding a good one is diminishing all the time as people just don't see the need to cherish them as much.

This may be true, but there are no shortage of tidy examples about. And there are plenty of ratty Defenders too. Remember not everyone buys them as lifestyle vehicles. Some buy them as work horses...

[Ayahuasca]

Wanted a Defender, got a Defender, can't ever now see myself without a Defender (or a Series LR). Want a Defender? Get a Defender!

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

Ayahuasca said:

Wanted a Defender, got a Defender, can't ever now see myself without a Defender (or a Series LR). Want a Defender? Get a Defender!

Agreed.
Suggesting a Discovery is like suggesting going for a curry to someone who really wants Chinese.

Only it isn't. A Disco1 is 95 %+ a Defender. Just with more room and comfort. Pretty much all the major points most complain about on Defender are fixed on a Disco, while retaining the same rugged ability.

[Ayahuasca]

300bhp/ton said:

Crossflow Kid said:

Ayahuasca said:

Wanted a Defender, got a Defender, can't ever now see myself without a Defender (or a Series LR). Want a Defender? Get a Defender!

Agreed.
Suggesting a Discovery is like suggesting going for a curry to someone who really wants Chinese.

Only it isn't. A Disco1 is 95 %+ a Defender. Just with more room and comfort. Pretty much all the major points most complain about on Defender are fixed on a Disco, while retaining the same rugged ability.

A Disco is NOTHING like a Defender! Who wants room and comfort anyway? They come at the expense of CHARACTER!

[Nick1point9]

Ayahuasca said:

A Disco is NOTHING like a Defender! Who wants room and comfort anyway? They come at the expense of CHARACTER!

They are incredibly similar in some aspects. If the OP wants a defender for lifestyle reasons then a disco just won't do. If he wants a defender because he wants a land rover that he can brim with kit/people and drive somewhere very remote then a disco will be cheaper to buy and do the same job.

[300bhp/ton]

Nick1point9 said:

Ayahuasca said:

A Disco is NOTHING like a Defender! Who wants room and comfort anyway? They come at the expense of CHARACTER!

They are incredibly similar in some aspects. If the OP wants a defender for lifestyle reasons then a disco just won't do. If he wants a defender because he wants a land rover that he can brim with kit/people and drive somewhere very remote then a disco will be cheaper to buy and do the same job.

+1 A Disco has more than enough character. They really are very similar vehicles to drive in terms of feel and ability.

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

300bhp/ton said:

Nick1point9 said:

Ayahuasca said:

A Disco is NOTHING like a Defender! Who wants room and comfort anyway? They come at the expense of CHARACTER!

They are incredibly similar in some aspects. If the OP wants a defender for lifestyle reasons then a disco just won't do. If he wants a defender because he wants a land rover that he can brim with kit/people and drive somewhere very remote then a disco will be cheaper to buy and do the same job.

+1 A Disco has more than enough character. They really are very similar vehicles to drive in terms of feel and ability.

How many times d'you need telling that Discovery was built around the Range Rover?
By the way, I really fancy a Mars Bar.......here, have a Snickers. It's sort of the same.

Yes I know it is. And how many times do you really need telling that an RR and a Defender are VERY VERY VERY fking similar!!!!!

The chassis is of the same basic design, with the same distance between chassis rails. The only real difference is the Defender chassis is fatter in the middle, and obviously bends up and down in slightly different places. But you'd have to fking clairvoyant to be able to tell this from the drivers seat.

The axles are the same, the diffs are the same, the suspension is the same, the steering boxes are the same, the steering rods are the same, the hubs are the same, the gearboxes are the same, the Disco uses the same transfer box too, the brakes are the same and the diesel engines are the same.

The only real differences are the body tubs. A Defender's body mounts directly metal to metal to the rear cross member and chassis out riggers. An RR or Disco body mounts via rubber donut bushes and sit's on top of the chassis. This is what improves NVH and reduces noise more than anything.

Then obviously the interior of the body is different. But it's perfectly possible to take a Range Rover or a Discovery, lift the body off, weld on a Defender rear cross member and out riggers and plonk a Defender body on it. Unless you were superman you'd not really know it was a Disco simply by driving it.


This Land Rover is a RANGE ROVER!!!!


But it looks, feels and drives like a 90 with a V8 would.


This is also a RANGE ROVER



And this one is a Tdi Discovery!!


Claiming an RR or Disco are completely different from a Defender simply shows a pure ignorance and lack of knowledge about these vehicles.


Re: the op.

If they want a Defender for:

-the looks
-the life style image
-the compact size
-the rugged hauling ability

Then these are all fine and valid points - and they should primarily consider a Defender.


However, if they want a rugged, capable 4x4 that feels a lot like a Defender to drive with the same towing/hauling abilities. Then a Discovery meets all these requirements for less money, better spec and does it in more comfort.

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

What was it the OP said again?
Oh yeah, he wants a Defender, not a rugged, capable 4x4 that feels a lot like a Defender to drive with the same towing/hauling abilities.

Did you miss this bit then:

abbotsmike said:

Having spent an equally large amount of time in a Discovery, I do keep considering them too.

[Dr_Rick]

Bought this one recently. Bought on the basis of a very solid chassis and bulkhead. The few parking dings will be dealt with over time. MY02 with 93k, TD5 with a stage 1 tune and EGR remove, electric screens and windows, central locking. Few clear lenses about the place and a long list of my own that I want to do to it. Solid money mind but I've seen more asked for worse condition.

Its great fun, especially when fellow owners give you The Wave.

[Ayahuasca]

Here's my one:





And after an unfortunate backward slide down a hill:

[Nick1point9]

Crossflow Kid said:

Nice couple of Discoverys there

You really are failing to grasp what 300 and I are getting it. We're not saying discos and defenders are interchangeable, but that for the extreme chasm in asking prices, depending on the OPs requirements, a disco may be more suitable. If a Mars bar cost 5x a snickers and all you really wanted was a chocolate bar then yes, have a snickers, if a tea cost 5x a coffee and all you wanted was a hot drink then you might as well have a coffee. The OP has since explained that he doesn't specifically want a defender and would consider a disco, and he hasn't said anything yet that would imply they'd be any less happy with a disco than a defender.

[abbotsmike]

Clearly an emotive topic! As I said at the start, I'm not in the position yet to go putting money down, I just wanted the opinion of those more knowledgable than I. There seems to be a lot of wink, wink, nudge, nudge around land rovers, both in pricing and capability.

If I were to buy with my head, it would be a disco every time. Unfortunately I'm not very good at that. The hauling ability is a boon for my scout leaderly duties, at is the off road ability of both. The defender is unquantifiable in the way it's just cooler though!!

I also think that if LR do go through with stopping production, then buying and caring for a defender in the next few years could see you with an appreciating asset.. It's not like they really lose money now!

[Dr_Rick]

I think the underlying rule is that you should buy on condition alone. Age is slightly irrelevant as like Trigger's Broom its so easy and relatively cheap on a per-instance basis to swap busted bits out that there's a little guess work as to whats original and whats not.

I bought mine because the known weak spots were obviously very solid. I looked through the history and didn't see any historic work in these areas so took it as an indication that they were original and well looked after. Time will tell how good a call I made.

[plasticpig]

Interesting one. I would have loved to buy a Defender but I wanted auto and a V8. That's either a 50th anniversary model or one which has been converted to North American specification by a recognized specialist. I know there are plenty of hone conversions out there and some of them are brilliantly done and some are a real pigs ear. That pretty much means a minimum of £7k and probably £10k+ for an anniversary because I don't know enough to spot brilliant from pigs ear.

I bought a Range Rover Classic soft dash instead in June for £2250. Not in brilliant nick but it just went through an MOT for £250 including £50 for the MOT. It has a
140 liter LPG system fitted and I am getting 32 mpg equivalent which is about the same as a TD5 Defender. It's true to say I will have to spend some money to get the same off road performance as a Defender. A lift kit and some under body protection for the LPG tanks are on the cards but it it still comes in far less than a V8 Defender.

[300bhp/ton]

Crossflow Kid said:

Ooooh, get you.
What I'm not failing to grasp is that no one but the OP really knows what he wants and what he intends to do with the vehicle, so if he asks about a Defender, a brace of replies saying "Get a Disco - they're just as good" could be very misleading, and for me simply begs the question "Good at what?". I took a Disco on an overland trip and it killed it. I was just too big and heavy and laden with electrical crap and creature comforts that we just didn't need nor want but used up valuable space, weight, and power. I could've thrown money at it to overcome the shortcomings, but why do that when you can just buy a bloody Defender and go.
The Defender simply scampers around like a mountain goat on similar trips and bounces back for more.
And if a Disco is such a viable replacement for a Defender, why have LR kept on building the latter in the same form through five iterations of the former?
They are similar vehicles with a lot of commonality, but they are not the same (despite photos of triallers running on Disco logbooks when they're mostly a Series.....yeah, dead clever that )
Car manufacturers do not put the same model in their line up twice.

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Sunday 29th September 22:28

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Sunday 29th September 22:28

Edited by Crossflow Kid on Sunday 29th September 22:29

Those trialers are not running around on Disco log books as you put it, nor are they mostly Series vehicles. If you actually had an inkling about these vehicles you'd actually know this.

All of those trialers are 100% Disco/RR in the chassis, engine and running gear departments. The only thing that has happened is:

-old rear cross member cut off and Series one welded on (because it fits)

-chopped 'x' amount out of the chassis and re-welded together to get the correct wheelbase.

-outrigger/body mounts welded in place.

-Series body plonked on top of the Disco/RR frame, engine & running gear.



BTW - if you "killed" a Disco as you claim, you are either lying, or the same would have happened to a Defender.

And for the record, you can buy a more basic Disco with less electronics on it than a specced up 90. Making the Disco the more 'basic' vehicle.

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Monday 30th September 11:10

Edited by Bill on Monday 30th September 12:16