Road Side Memorials
Discussion
www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1325531,00.html
This has been making the news in a relatively quiet manner recently. What are peoples thoughts on this?
I know the Scottish Transport Officers have recommended that they be removed after 30 days. Mainly from the crux of conversations i've had with some of them, as they're constantly cropping up on rural roads where visibility is limited and they're worried about people stopping to tend them on blind corners and suchlike..
I'm on the fence at the moment - I can see how they can have a safety benefit i.e. they do indicate that a fatality has occurred at that stretch, raise awarenes etc.
On the flipside are we looking at yet another sign and possible distraction for drivers plus god forbid coming round a corner to be confronted by a family sticking some more plants in, putting wreaths down etc.
The 4 foot high concrete crosses next to the roadside don't bare thinking about...
Locally, we have had one major objection from a householder whose got an impromtu memorial outside his house to 3 dead from their mate driving drunk and on drugs, and as he was the first on the scene, he dosen't exaclty want to be reminded of that terrible night when he was holding a dying youths hand..
*sigh* a very emotive one, seen to be callous to the relatives, insensitive to other locals or raising further issues of safety - any thoughts anyone? It will be only a matter of time now before our Authority has to make an official descision on where we stand.
This has been making the news in a relatively quiet manner recently. What are peoples thoughts on this?
I know the Scottish Transport Officers have recommended that they be removed after 30 days. Mainly from the crux of conversations i've had with some of them, as they're constantly cropping up on rural roads where visibility is limited and they're worried about people stopping to tend them on blind corners and suchlike..
I'm on the fence at the moment - I can see how they can have a safety benefit i.e. they do indicate that a fatality has occurred at that stretch, raise awarenes etc.
On the flipside are we looking at yet another sign and possible distraction for drivers plus god forbid coming round a corner to be confronted by a family sticking some more plants in, putting wreaths down etc.
The 4 foot high concrete crosses next to the roadside don't bare thinking about...
Locally, we have had one major objection from a householder whose got an impromtu memorial outside his house to 3 dead from their mate driving drunk and on drugs, and as he was the first on the scene, he dosen't exaclty want to be reminded of that terrible night when he was holding a dying youths hand..
*sigh* a very emotive one, seen to be callous to the relatives, insensitive to other locals or raising further issues of safety - any thoughts anyone? It will be only a matter of time now before our Authority has to make an official descision on where we stand.
Its the irony involved that amazes me.
Couple of months back there was a quite horrid accident on the M25-M4 on slip going westbound.
Unfortunately a young lad lost his life.
This was on the wednesday.
On the Friday afternoon about 25 of his relatives were parked up on the hard shoulder at about 4pm with cars passing them at upto 100mph and they were blissfully unaware that they were paying their respects on the most dangerous part of the motorway.
Its astounding.
Couple of months back there was a quite horrid accident on the M25-M4 on slip going westbound.
Unfortunately a young lad lost his life.
This was on the wednesday.
On the Friday afternoon about 25 of his relatives were parked up on the hard shoulder at about 4pm with cars passing them at upto 100mph and they were blissfully unaware that they were paying their respects on the most dangerous part of the motorway.
Its astounding.
Been discussing this elsewhere, and my principal thoughts are...
1. The practice now seems to be going beyond the simple laying of a memorial to a loved one. It would seem that a lot of these flowers are being laid by people with no connection to the victims, though whether this is in a sort of "post-Diana-bleeding-heart" way, or whether to draw adverse attention to road safety for political ends is unclear. Either way, it seems to me like this may be extending beyond what first appears, and may even in some cases be going against the wishes of family who might not want to be repeatedly reminded of their loss every time they pass.
2. Why does it happen? Is it just a fashion? Given that a relatively small number of people die in road accidents, compared to things like heart disease and smoking, how come we don't see floral tributes littering the land for all the others? This does again seem to point to a possible political motivation, to draw attention to road fatalities.
3. It creates an additional danger, distracting people from paying attention to the road at what may well be an accident blackspot.
4. It would clearly be a moral minefield to try and impose any restrictions, especially in the current political climate. It's like trying to pass laws to enforce common sense or good taste!
5. The most effective way to stop it would be to subtly alter people's perceptions, such that the practice of laying flowers anonymously is seen as being slightly distasteful - leave the grieving to the grievers...
1. The practice now seems to be going beyond the simple laying of a memorial to a loved one. It would seem that a lot of these flowers are being laid by people with no connection to the victims, though whether this is in a sort of "post-Diana-bleeding-heart" way, or whether to draw adverse attention to road safety for political ends is unclear. Either way, it seems to me like this may be extending beyond what first appears, and may even in some cases be going against the wishes of family who might not want to be repeatedly reminded of their loss every time they pass.
2. Why does it happen? Is it just a fashion? Given that a relatively small number of people die in road accidents, compared to things like heart disease and smoking, how come we don't see floral tributes littering the land for all the others? This does again seem to point to a possible political motivation, to draw attention to road fatalities.
3. It creates an additional danger, distracting people from paying attention to the road at what may well be an accident blackspot.
4. It would clearly be a moral minefield to try and impose any restrictions, especially in the current political climate. It's like trying to pass laws to enforce common sense or good taste!
5. The most effective way to stop it would be to subtly alter people's perceptions, such that the practice of laying flowers anonymously is seen as being slightly distasteful - leave the grieving to the grievers...
You don't see the other tributes because other types of death don't (usually) happen in such public places.
The tributes make me think about safety. If they do that to those who don't think about it as regularly as some of us, then great.
But if I were the police, I would certainly, at the very least, give a strong ticking off to anyone who parked or stood at the scene of an accident, in rembrance or otherwise, in such a manner that created danger.
The tributes make me think about safety. If they do that to those who don't think about it as regularly as some of us, then great.
But if I were the police, I would certainly, at the very least, give a strong ticking off to anyone who parked or stood at the scene of an accident, in rembrance or otherwise, in such a manner that created danger.
We saw this in Soham .... flowers laid in sorrow in empathy, sympathy, genuine condolences for a family to whom the absolute unthinkable had happened? But the people sending truck loads of bouquets, teddies and the like had never met the little girls....
Are we changing as a society? Is it a case of recognising an evil and thinking
"There but for the grace of God go I" and instead of going to Church to pray for Almighty protection, we feel that to lay a token of condolence as an offering may thwart the evil spirits which may cause us to suffer the same hell?
We replace God and gods with celebrities. I once remember reading something in the school Latin class (one of the rare occasions I remained in the classroom
) about Romans and their favourite god. I think about that work by Virgil when I read my papers and see "celeb does this and that" and the odd quiz in my daughter's teenage rag about "What your fave celeb tells about your personality" or some such garbage....
Perhaps this superficiality has something to do with it. A need to express a grief but which does not involve a church or religion which we no longer believe in or practise.
Perhaps this is part of the logic - the bereaved feel they cannot express grief. Perhaps they feel that in some way the spirit of their loved one is wandering around the spot where he or she died....
But permanent monuments ....four foot wooden crosses.... it can be a distraction to motorists and there has been no planning permission either... Flowers .... people may have hayfever, they can blow into windscreens and thus distract and even cause another accident...
Our Mary W condemns this - saying that the traumatic grief lasts and that the memorial warns that something awful happened....
Well ... to Mary's on line lurker here -
No-one is saying that the grief goes away - and it does not matter how your loved one died - it NEVER EVER goes away
But there is a place for displaying your grief and anger - and it is not at the spot where the person dies.... at that rate we would have no blinkin' hospital beds....
If I had died that morning when .... I would not want the motorway to be a shrine to my memory nor would I want my belongings and bedroom kept in a time capsule - and I would have expected the Mad Doc to remarry and get on with his life - but not forget me either!
Personally I prefer a grave.... our graves in Switzerland are like those in Austria.... flowers, candles, photo of deceased and sometimes a little poem or tribute stating what the person meant in life to the family. Even if cremated - the ashes are buried in the family plots. But a grave/memorial garden/cemetary - that is where you go to grieve and express your grief and sit in quiet remembrance of your loved one and what they would think of the world we now live in. I know that Ferdl and Rudli would certainly be sounding off about speed cams if they were still alive....and condemning the overall politically correct and godless society we live in....
My deceased pets' ashes are buried in a pets' cemetary - and
we are soft enough to place flowers there on anniversaries...and think about how they used to play ball ..... and reflect that the current dogs and other pets are different characters
>> Edited by WildCat on Wednesday 27th October 12:54
Are we changing as a society? Is it a case of recognising an evil and thinking "There but for the grace of God go I" and instead of going to Church to pray for Almighty protection, we feel that to lay a token of condolence as an offering may thwart the evil spirits which may cause us to suffer the same hell?
We replace God and gods with celebrities. I once remember reading something in the school Latin class (one of the rare occasions I remained in the classroom
) about Romans and their favourite god. I think about that work by Virgil when I read my papers and see "celeb does this and that" and the odd quiz in my daughter's teenage rag about "What your fave celeb tells about your personality" or some such garbage.... Perhaps this superficiality has something to do with it. A need to express a grief but which does not involve a church or religion which we no longer believe in or practise.
Perhaps this is part of the logic - the bereaved feel they cannot express grief. Perhaps they feel that in some way the spirit of their loved one is wandering around the spot where he or she died....
But permanent monuments ....four foot wooden crosses.... it can be a distraction to motorists and there has been no planning permission either... Flowers .... people may have hayfever, they can blow into windscreens and thus distract and even cause another accident...
Our Mary W condemns this - saying that the traumatic grief lasts and that the memorial warns that something awful happened....
Well ... to Mary's on line lurker here -
No-one is saying that the grief goes away - and it does not matter how your loved one died - it NEVER EVER goes away
But there is a place for displaying your grief and anger - and it is not at the spot where the person dies.... at that rate we would have no blinkin' hospital beds....
If I had died that morning when .... I would not want the motorway to be a shrine to my memory nor would I want my belongings and bedroom kept in a time capsule - and I would have expected the Mad Doc to remarry and get on with his life - but not forget me either!
Personally I prefer a grave.... our graves in Switzerland are like those in Austria.... flowers, candles, photo of deceased and sometimes a little poem or tribute stating what the person meant in life to the family. Even if cremated - the ashes are buried in the family plots. But a grave/memorial garden/cemetary - that is where you go to grieve and express your grief and sit in quiet remembrance of your loved one and what they would think of the world we now live in. I know that Ferdl and Rudli would certainly be sounding off about speed cams if they were still alive....and condemning the overall politically correct and godless society we live in....
My deceased pets' ashes are buried in a pets' cemetary - and
we are soft enough to place flowers there on anniversaries...and think about how they used to play ball ..... and reflect that the current dogs and other pets are different characters >> Edited by WildCat on Wednesday 27th October 12:54
charltm said:
You don't see the other tributes because other types of death don't (usually) happen in such public places.
The tributes make me think about safety. If they do that to those who don't think about it as regularly as some of us, then great.
But if I were the police, I would certainly, at the very least, give a strong ticking off to anyone who parked or stood at the scene of an accident, in rembrance or otherwise, in such a manner that created danger.
People drop dead in the street every day of the week. These memorials are an unnecessary hazard and should be removed.
ca092003 said:
When someone dies do you remember them at their graveside or at the spot where they died? I don't go to the hospital ward where my father died, I go to his grave. Simple really.
Agreed.
I just don't see the point in marking the area where someone I know gets turned into a greasy spot.
My dad had a scary crash in to summer. He walked away with a couple of scratches. If the result had been different I would not have marked that spot or allowed others to do so.
The hole in the hedge, now filled with wire fence is reminder enough.
I suspect the answer as to why such memorials have proliferated of late is that more of us travel overseas and the trend from the likes of Brazil (where I first saw these things as a kid in 1980), Italy etc. has caught on.
For me, flowers are neither a distraction nor a danger. My brain is capable of taking in their presence and noting that someone has died without preventing me being able to drive safely.
Hard monuments, though, I'd rather see removed right away.
All MHO
For me, flowers are neither a distraction nor a danger. My brain is capable of taking in their presence and noting that someone has died without preventing me being able to drive safely.
Hard monuments, though, I'd rather see removed right away.
All MHO
I wouldn't put flowers, or anything else down, where someone has died in a collision. I wouldn't find it useful (I'm with ca092003 on this one as much as it pains me to say it).
However, having dealt with next of kin at fatals, part of the "procedure" is to ask them if they want to see the site of the collision. Some do, some don't. In a similar way, some people find the laying of flowers useful, others don't. I wouldn't criticise those that do if it helps them. I'm not so sure about permanent memorials, as there is a danger to people tending them, as usually by their location, they are in dangerous places.
I can see both sides of the argument for these "memorials" though. On the one hand, it draws others' attention to a potential trouble spot; on the other, it may distract drivers from concentrating on other hazards.
However, having dealt with next of kin at fatals, part of the "procedure" is to ask them if they want to see the site of the collision. Some do, some don't. In a similar way, some people find the laying of flowers useful, others don't. I wouldn't criticise those that do if it helps them. I'm not so sure about permanent memorials, as there is a danger to people tending them, as usually by their location, they are in dangerous places.
I can see both sides of the argument for these "memorials" though. On the one hand, it draws others' attention to a potential trouble spot; on the other, it may distract drivers from concentrating on other hazards.
charltm said:
I suspect the answer as to why such memorials have proliferated of late is that more of us travel overseas and the trend from the likes of Brazil (where I first saw these things as a kid in 1980), Italy etc. has caught on.
But they are not all over the show - Liebchen. One shrine only is erected as symbol for all - and if it is a permanent statue/cross/pillar of some kind - then planning permission would have been granted.
Here - it is a case of erect the shrine willy nilly without seeking any advice or permission. Another bit of the "me first" "pay me attention - I want me 5 minutes of fame" and "wear my heart on my sleeve" and "please feel sorry for me" "whinge" society we have become!
As for the flowers in cellophane which also detaches itself and blows into windscreens
- it does not seem to cross people's minds that some people may suffer from hay fever or some allergy ... and it is thus more of hazard to passing pedestrian. (Girl in Manchester paper is allergic to coconut oil which is present in some shampoos and has to have lessons on her own as result - people are allergic to oddest things). Teddies, cards and such - is litter and in heavy wind can blow into path of car and cause hazard. No - shrines are the memorial stones in the grave yard and that is where you go to pay respects to your dead - light the candle in the church, pray for them and place flowers as token of respect - tastefully arranged (without the wrapping) on the grave....
I do not hold with this kind of over-emotional garbage ....
Dibble said:
I can see both sides of the argument for these "memorials" though. On the one hand, it draws others' attention to a potential trouble spot; on the other, it may distract drivers from concentrating on other hazards.
Liebchen - you do not need flowers or wooden crosses in Kodak County surely ..... your 'eavy mob have got it sorted ..... er .... forests of 'em .... all yellow .... and vans ... lots of 'em ......all at the danger spots .....
Not exactly great track record given the increased death rates .... either .....
You're worrying me Wildcat with your "Liebchen"s. I'm not a fan over post-Diana over-sentimentality either, but rest assured, these new memorials are no more common than in a lot of overseas countries - the average Brazilian road-side bamboo cross or bouquet certainly hasn't been put there with planning permission!
Don't start me off Wildy!
Spent 5 hours last night on point duty, because people are too stupid to deal with traffic lights during half term, coming to see the illuminations!
It takes about 2 hours to get into the start of the illuminations at 7pm. Obviously, this is all down to my lack of skill at directing traffic, rather than the fact the whole of the northwest has come to see them in the same week.
I shall polish my magic wand to make the traffic flow tonight, so that visitors can remain stationary for an hour on the other side of the junction!
Spent 5 hours last night on point duty, because people are too stupid to deal with traffic lights during half term, coming to see the illuminations!
It takes about 2 hours to get into the start of the illuminations at 7pm. Obviously, this is all down to my lack of skill at directing traffic, rather than the fact the whole of the northwest has come to see them in the same week.
I shall polish my magic wand to make the traffic flow tonight, so that visitors can remain stationary for an hour on the other side of the junction!
Dibble said:
Don't start me off Wildy!
Spent 5 hours last night on point duty, because people are too stupid to deal with traffic lights during half term, coming to see the illuminations!
It takes about 2 hours to get into the start of the illuminations at 7pm. Obviously, this is all down to my lack of skill at directing traffic, rather than the fact the whole of the northwest has come to see them in the same week.
I shall polish my magic wand to make the traffic flow tonight, so that visitors can remain stationary for an hour on the other side of the junction!
Ah its the weather thats the problem mate. See in Spain when the traffic backs up, el plod comes along wearing some very cool shades and encourages the traffic to move by waving his machine gun at the drivers.
Here in the UK, its pissing down and we get you
Complete with big gloves, dayglo and a whistle if we're lucky. With the best will in the world you have to ask "whats our motivation"? Some chuffing lights and a old funfair? Its just another one of those "Done things" that stupid idiots get hooked into.
"Oh our son died here, and we must make a show of it, we must let the public see our grief"......BOLLOCKS YOU PLEBS!
I can tell you this, if i ever get smeared all over the road NO-ONE had better put up any markers for me, else ill come back and haunt the bastards until the end of time.
Too much of this public displaying of false emotions...irritates the crap outa me! STOP DOING IT!!!!
>> Edited by deltaf on Wednesday 27th October 14:52
"Oh our son died here, and we must make a show of it, we must let the public see our grief"......BOLLOCKS YOU PLEBS!
I can tell you this, if i ever get smeared all over the road NO-ONE had better put up any markers for me, else ill come back and haunt the bastards until the end of time.
Too much of this public displaying of false emotions...irritates the crap outa me! STOP DOING IT!!!!
>> Edited by deltaf on Wednesday 27th October 14:52
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