Help with Parking ticket Dispute
Discussion
I hope someone can help with this, I have received a notice that the penalty charge has not been paid in full for a parking offence that I did not receive a ticket for.
I was parked at a meter in Westminster and returned to find a parking attendant tapping away on his machine. I departed the parking bay at warp 9.2 and he did not have time to complete the ticket and fix it to the car. It is my understanding that the ticket is not valid unless it is either affixed to the car or handed to the driver.
The notice says :
It then goes on to say there are eight grounds only on which you may make representations:
I am not liable to pay the penalty charge notice because:
1. I was not the owner/Keeper ...
2. We are a hire firm and have supplied the details ...
3. The vehicle has been taken without consent
4. The parking attendant was not prevented from serving the penalty charge notice
The penalty charge notice was incorrectly issued because:
5. The contravention did not occur
6. The penalty exceeded the relevant amount
7. The traffic order was invalid
8. The notice to the owner was served out of time
Which box do I tick for the ticket was not issued correctly?
I think either 4 or 5 but the wording is a little misleading. The full text for box 4 and 5 is...
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Rich
>>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 29th October 00:16
>>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 29th October 00:19
I was parked at a meter in Westminster and returned to find a parking attendant tapping away on his machine. I departed the parking bay at warp 9.2 and he did not have time to complete the ticket and fix it to the car. It is my understanding that the ticket is not valid unless it is either affixed to the car or handed to the driver.
parkingticket.co.uk said:
If I return to my car whilst the ticket is being issued but drive off before it can be either handed to me or fixed to the vehicle am I still liable?
This depends on who it is issuing the ticket.
If it is a council parking attendant then, to be valid, the ticket must be either handed to the driver or fixed to the vehicle. If you subsequently get a Notice to Owner you should write to the issuing council, explaining the situation, and ask for it to be cancelled. If they will not cancel it then appeal. Although the adjudication services do not categorise types of appeal anecdotal evidence suggests that between a third and a half of all appeals are for this reason.
However, if you return to find a police officer or traffic warden in the process of issuing a ticket then, if you drive off, the ticket can be sent to you as they enforce under different legislation.
The notice says :
Notice said:
If you believe that you are not liable to pay the penalty charge notice or that the penalty charge notice was incorrectly issued:
Read the 'NOTES FOR COMPLETION' section on the notice to owner
Tick the appropriate box below and give all relevant details overleaf
Sign the 'DECLARATION' overleaf and return the form in the envelope provided within 28 days of delivery of this notice to owner
Do not send payment if making representations
It then goes on to say there are eight grounds only on which you may make representations:
I am not liable to pay the penalty charge notice because:
1. I was not the owner/Keeper ...
2. We are a hire firm and have supplied the details ...
3. The vehicle has been taken without consent
4. The parking attendant was not prevented from serving the penalty charge notice
The penalty charge notice was incorrectly issued because:
5. The contravention did not occur
6. The penalty exceeded the relevant amount
7. The traffic order was invalid
8. The notice to the owner was served out of time
Which box do I tick for the ticket was not issued correctly?
I think either 4 or 5 but the wording is a little misleading. The full text for box 4 and 5 is...
Notice said:
4. The parking attendant was not prevented from serving the penalty charge notice
Tick this box if you have been advised that the parking attendant was prevented from issuing the penalty charge notice and provide details in box 2 overleaf
5. The contravention did not occur
Tick this box if the contravention described on the penalty charge notice did not happen - for instance if the penalty charge notice is for overstaying on a meter and the time had not expired. When returning this form please enclose any supporting evidence and provide details in Box 2 overleaf.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Rich
>>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 29th October 00:16
>>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 29th October 00:19
Consider the fact that if your sign the paperwork declaration could this be taken as that you have given an acknowledgement.?
Also consider writing a letter explaining the fact that you did not receive a ticket personally or that one was put on the vehicle by the T.W. as a result the procedure is invalid. Include the ticket unsigned.
DVD
Also consider writing a letter explaining the fact that you did not receive a ticket personally or that one was put on the vehicle by the T.W. as a result the procedure is invalid. Include the ticket unsigned.
DVD
I once found someone else's parking fine slip lodged in my intercooler. Instead of doing nothing about it, I delivered it to the ticket office as I didn't want the driver to pay the late payment penalty. I attached to the ticket a letter, saying something along the lines of "in your rush to give out as many parking fines as possible, you are (deliberately?) failing to attach them properly to vehicles". It made me feel better anyway.
I had a situation like this and they dropped it very quickly.
I parked for a couple of minutes or some rubbed out unbarred yellows on a wide, quiete side street. Saw a warden ambling along, went & dropped my stuff off and came back to the car. Maybe some 5 minutes in total. No ticket on car. Later I received the snotty letter asking for the dosh. I wrote back saying I had never received the ticket and that a shopkeeper had been able to see my car. In other words the officer was pulling a fast one. Like I said, they dropped it.
I parked for a couple of minutes or some rubbed out unbarred yellows on a wide, quiete side street. Saw a warden ambling along, went & dropped my stuff off and came back to the car. Maybe some 5 minutes in total. No ticket on car. Later I received the snotty letter asking for the dosh. I wrote back saying I had never received the ticket and that a shopkeeper had been able to see my car. In other words the officer was pulling a fast one. Like I said, they dropped it.
DVD Thanks for your reply. I will draft some kid of letter when the caffeine takes effect and include the Notice un Signed. I was there and the meter had probably run out (I didn't check as I was more concerned at getting out of there) so I won't say different to that.
On the bit of paper they fix to the window it says 'Penalty Charge Notice' But the Letter they have sent to me mentions the 'Parking Fine' payments on there web site and they call themselves Parking Services, City if Westminster.
EDIT: can't spell ... again
>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 29th October 11:05
supraman2954 said:
In law, is the penalty known as a 'parking ticket' or a 'parking fine'?
On the bit of paper they fix to the window it says 'Penalty Charge Notice' But the Letter they have sent to me mentions the 'Parking Fine' payments on there web site and they call themselves Parking Services, City if Westminster.
EDIT: can't spell ... again
>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 29th October 11:05
Go and check the lines on the road. Is there a small but complete break in the line? (Hint, hint) If so the ticket issued was invalid anyway.
Round by us none of the lines are actually complete. We just send pictures of the lines, the street and a copy of the legislation detailing what dimensions, colours and height road signs and lines have to be.
Non complete, un-terminated or broken lines are unenforceable – no tickets can be issued. Most traffic wardens and other parking scum do not normally have a clue about these things. Send all the info in and just ignore everything else they send you.
Make sure the letter you send is registered delivery, b*stards usually say they have not received anything and you get stung. They can’t say it if you send it RegPost.
Round by us none of the lines are actually complete. We just send pictures of the lines, the street and a copy of the legislation detailing what dimensions, colours and height road signs and lines have to be.
Non complete, un-terminated or broken lines are unenforceable – no tickets can be issued. Most traffic wardens and other parking scum do not normally have a clue about these things. Send all the info in and just ignore everything else they send you.
Make sure the letter you send is registered delivery, b*stards usually say they have not received anything and you get stung. They can’t say it if you send it RegPost.
drv112 said:
Were you parked in a CPZ?
I have found somethings regarding contract & tort law on parking meters.
I need to know about the CPZ.
CPZ? Controlled Parking Zone?
I would have no idea, It was a regular Parking meter with a bay marked out. In London N1, you know the sort that earn £5 per hour, isn't that more than minimum wage?
se. Just sent this letter to them....
xxxxxxrich said:
Your Ref: WS1023456A
I refer you to the Enclosed Notice to Owner that you sent me.
On that date and time in question I did not have either a Penalty Charge Notice fixed to my car or handed to me by a Parking Attendant.
As I understand this is the correct procedure for issuing a Penalty Charge Notice by a Parking Attendant.
I consider this case closed and may take legal action against you if you persist any further in this matter.
Regards,
Further to my letter that I sent back to these people I have just received this:
They firstly say
Anyway they then go on to say
I intend to take it to the adjudicator and go as far as I can and throw my rattle out of my pram etc. If nothing else it will waste a whole pile of there time and money. But I was wondering if anyone knows any of the rules regarding this or has any advice…..
Rich
>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 31st December 00:34
wesminister parking services said:
NOTICE OF REJECTION
Of representation against the Notice to Owner
Dear Mr x
Road Traffic Act 1991 (Section 66 and Schedule 6) (as amended)
Penalty Charge Notice: xxxxxx
Vehicle Registration Mark: xxx xxxx
Date of Issue: xxxxxx
Location of issue: Some Street,NW1
Thank you for the representation you made on receiving a Notice to Owner about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
The PCN was issued at 10:39 because the vehicle was parked in a meter bay when the penalty time was indicated. The parking meter was showing penalty time 00:03
The attendant has noted was parked on meter bay Nxxxx.
Although the parking attendant confirms that the PCN was put on the vehicle, you say that the first time you knew that you had received a PCN was when the NTO arrived. It is possible that some other person removed the PCN after it was issued, but an offence was committed and the PCN is still valid.
MY investigation is now complete and although there are insufficient grounds to cancel the PCN, I can allow payment to be made at the discount rate.
Your representation has been rejected and you must either pay the PCN or appeal to a parking adjudicator at the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service within 28 days of the date of this letter.
To appeal to a Parking Adjudicator you will need to read, complete and return the enclosed appeal form and send it directly to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service. You can only appeal on the grounds indicated on the appeal form.
There is no charge for making an appeal, But the Adjudicator can award costs if you or the Council have been wholly unreasonable, vexatious or frivolous.
Please note that if the Adjudicator refuses your appeal, you will be required to pay the full charge of the PCN.
They firstly say
wesminister parking services said:so £50 for 3 mins parking I hardly call that a service! I realise it’s not grounds for getting the ticked cancelled but well?
‘The PCN was issued at 10:39 because the vehicle was parked in a meter bay when the penalty time was indicated. The parking meter was showing penalty time 00:03’
Anyway they then go on to say
wesminister parking services said:But I know this not to be true and I know the Parking Attendant has lied because the Parking Attendant was at the side of my car when I was loading my tools into it and when I drove off. There was no ticket issued!
‘the parking attendant confirms that the PCN was put on the vehicle, you say that the first time you knew that you had received a PCN was when the NTO arrived. It is possible that some other person removed the PCN after it was issued,’
I intend to take it to the adjudicator and go as far as I can and throw my rattle out of my pram etc. If nothing else it will waste a whole pile of there time and money. But I was wondering if anyone knows any of the rules regarding this or has any advice…..
Rich
>> Edited by xxxxxxrich on Friday 31st December 00:34
You might consider this approach? www.pepipoo.com/NewForums2/viewtopic.php?t=3412
Godfrey H said:Well That's what I was planning on doing. The thing is it's not a court and does this mean that the PA won't have to stand up and swear on some holy book of his choosing that he put the ticket on the car?
Take it all the way through the appeals procedure they will lose as the PA is lying.
Reading all the appeal paperwork it would appear I don't need to be there for the decision, although I guess if I am there it will cost them more money and will I get my chance to stamp my feet?
I have read through the pepipoo link that Observer posted - thanks. Looks interesting but not sure if I can use it or perhaps I can throw it at the adjudicator if things go sour.
Any ideas how I should respond to the adjudicator? Should I ignore the form that they have enclosed and just write a letter to them telling them that the PA Lied?
Rich
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