3 Drivers, why so much extra cost?

[StreetDragster]

Hi All,

Recently i have wanted to take up trackday-ing a bit more actively than before, and i decided to buy a car just for the task, with two of my friends agreeing to chip into the costs of the various days if we shared the driving.

We have come to book our first track day and have found that whilst two drivers are free with this particular company, a third one is an extra £50.

Now i personally feel a bit shocked by this price, my reasoning being that the same car is likely to be on the track the same amount of time on the same day, costs to the company should be minimal. I'm happy to be enlightened about this.

Anyone know any track day companys that don't charge a hefty premium for 3 drivers?

Thanks

Matt

[jonnyleroux]

Assume you're referring to BookaTrack, because as far as I know we are the only company with that pricing structure.

I'll be brutally honest, it's a deterrent - not a pricing model. In our experience, cars with 3 or more drivers are statistically far more likely to cause problems (stoppages due to mechanical issues or driving standards issues).

Also, we offer a no queues guarantee which means we need to keep the numbers down. Like all TDO's, we rely on less-than-100% utilisation of the circuit (ie we expect each car to be on-track for less than the full 60 minutes out of each hour). Clearly, the more drivers you have in a car, the closer you are likely to get to that capacity figure, and the more likely we are to experience queues in the pitlane.

Hope that helps.

Jonny
BaT

[TuxMan]

To be honest I think each driver should be charged for the day not the car , as Jonny points out 3 drivers in one car will spend 3 times the time on track so in effect 3 extra cars on track .

[.blue]

TuxMan said:

To be honest I think each driver should be charged for the day not the car , as Jonny points out 3 drivers in one car will spend 3 times the time on track so in effect 3 extra cars on track .

That's not true. Assuming a car with a single driver spends 50% of total possible time on track then with 3 drivers it will spend 150% - i.e. impossible.

Add to that the fact that the car will often be the limiting factor (i.e. tyres/brakes etc. need to cool after every X laps), in reality that is likely to be lower. This supports Jonny's point about why these cars might cause more trouble than single driver cars - i.e. more likely to crash/spin.

[silverthorn2151]

Have to say that would also say not correct in all cases. 3 of us share the Radical and we spend less time on track in total than many others driving on their own. It might be different in something less fragile than a Radical but to be honest the limiting factor will be many and various.

Can you expand on your experiences Johnny and persuade us that it's not just blatant profiteering on the part of millionaire track day operators! /remove tongue

[Herman Toothrot]

Depends on how hard the car is driven and what it is, there are plenty of cars that could on an open pit lane day spend the whole day on track with 3 drivers. At a day recently a mk3 MR2 that had 2 drivers was out almost all the time, people were laughing about it in the pits that they were really getting their moneys worth. A single car with single driver probably averages 15 to 20 mins out then a 10 to 15 min break. Additional drivers its obvious the car will be out for longer. I also find it noticeable that often you see multi driver cars one minute hammering about brilliantly then the next being rubbish, maybe a product of one person being really into it; the driving force and the others only really there to make it cheaper.

[Elderly]

Why is it that some TDOs charge for extra drivers on a sessioned day?

[jonnyleroux]

silverthorn2151 said:

Have to say that would also say not correct in all cases. 3 of us share the Radical and we spend less time on track in total than many others driving on their own. It might be different in something less fragile than a Radical but to be honest the limiting factor will be many and various.

Can you expand on your experiences Johnny and persuade us that it's not just blatant profiteering on the part of millionaire track day operators! /remove tongue

There will be exceptions to every rule. For every radical which does a handful of laps between 3 drivers, there will be a dozen Mazdas, BMWs etc that will be run ragged all day without a break.

I dragged some stats out of our database (13 years worth of figures of stoppages) as I was intruiged to see whether my theory could be backed up by figures. Here goes:-

67% of bookings with BaT are for 1 driver only
31% of bookings with BaT are for 2 drivers
2% of bookings with BaT are for 3 or more drivers

However, when we look at the figures for stoppages (mechanical failures or crashes/gravel trap incidents) we get:-

53% of stoppages are caused by single driver bookings
42% of stoppages are caused by 2 driver bookings
5% of stoppages are caused by 3 or more driver bookings

Clearly, the more drivers you have in a car, the more laps the car will cover and the more likely it is that the car will cause a stoppage. I suspect the figures fairly accurately reflect the percentage of additional track time each booking gets with the increase in drivers.

i.e. 31% to 42% is an increase of 35% suggesting 2 drivers get 35% more track time than a single driver.

More notably 2% to 5% is an increase of 250%, suggesting 3-or-more drivers are more likely to cause a stoppage, even when allowing the additional track time the car is getting.

What's really interesting is the figures for "lack of fuel" stoppages. I'll admit it's bad use of statistics as it's a fairly rare occurance thankfully, but some 60% of fuel-related stoppages can be attributed to cars with 3 or more drivers. That's only based on a sample size of a couple of dozen fuel stoppages in 13 years though - so unlikely to be particularly accurate.

Hope that all makes sense.

Jonny
BaT

[UKAutospark]

I have to agree that more drivers per car equals more time on track, I used to share a car and it was never off circuit, often only getting a couple of minutes between sessions to cool down.

Since I have had my own cars I probably spend less time in the car now than I did when there were two of us.

WRT other TDOs, Some (circuit days I think) don't charge for any additional drivers but most others charge around £35 per extra driver and Knockhill charge about £75 IIRC!!

[Mashedpotatoes]

More notably 2% to 5% is an increase of 250%, suggesting 3-or-more drivers are more likely to cause a stoppage, even when allowing the additional track time the car is getting.

Should that be an increase of 150 %?.

[MagicalTrevor]

Yep '2% to 5%' is an increase of 150% or 250% of the original value
/pedant

Not that it matters of course in terms of how Jonny feels about the risk!

[silverthorn2151]

The lack of fuel stoppages I can totally see with a car doing more laps.

Its really interesting that you keep the records Johnny. Do those figures really bear out the perception though? If 5 in 100 stoppages involve 3 driver 'entries' that leaves 95 caused by 1 or 2 driver entries, so not many in reality. I do recognise your point though about how that compares to the % of 3 driver entries.

Mind you, doing sums at this time of the day can give rise to totally incorrect answers.

[shim]

silverthorn2151 said:

Have to say that would also say not correct in all cases. 3 of us share the Radical and we spend less time on track in total than many others driving on their own. It might be different in something less fragile than a Radical but to be honest the limiting factor will be many and various.

Can you expand on your experiences Johnny and persuade us that it's not just blatant profiteering on the part of millionaire track day operators! /remove tongue

Not one to agree with Jonny under any circumstances I feel he is spot on here. Strange!

IMHO each driver should pay 50% extra at least as on the whole they will take up more tracktime than a single driver. His pricing seems cheap to me.

[StreetDragster]

Seems its just the way it is, thanks all, we'll begrudgingly MTFU.

Thanks

Matt

[majordad]

In my experience more than two drivers per car does cause some or all of the problems stated above so I for one agree with the rule charging them more.