Used Car Woes - Advice Please
Discussion
Hi all, potentially a lengthy one so I'll stick to the facts and be as brief as possible, please ask if you need anymore information.
Firstly, the advice I'm after concerns what is reasonable to put down as wear and tear or a serviceable item and what would you expect to be rectified as a fault by a used car dealer.
I bought a used car, early 2008 registered with 91,000 miles on the clock, mid September.
Cosmetically the car is excellent and it has a full main dealer history, it drove well at test drive and I bought it subject to a whirring grating noise behind the dash being rectified.
At pick up I was advised the noise was due to an ill fitting pollen filter catching the vent fan - this had been replaced but the fan was still slightly noisy - I tested it and it seemed much quieter and agreeable.
On getting the car home I noted it was indicating a glow plug failure, I contacted the garage almost immediately and he asked me to try tapping the relay box to see if this resolved it and to check some numbers off the unit if not for him to order a replacement. This seemed reasonable, tapping didn't resolve anything so we arranged for the car to go in a week or so later.
In the interim I wasn't using the car much as I still had company car, but I noted this 'fan' noise was again loud as ever and fairly intrusive - reluctanly he agreed to review this matter too and did eventually replace the fan.
When I picked the car up the glowplug issue was sorted but the 'fan' was still noisy, he said I'd just have to live with it. I agreed and have since personally diagnosed a noisy AC compressor - putting that aside then...
I've only really started using the car this past week as my company car has gone back, and I noticed a knock on the steering at low speeed. I called him at the earliest opportunity and basically was fobbed off! He told me I 'can't keep coming to him everytime there's a bit of a noise'.
On my next long drive I noticed a low whine which seemed to be coming from the front left - knowing I'd get nowhere with this guy again I sought advice from a marque specialist - he reckons it sounds like a bearing in either the gearbox or diff (expensive).
Knowing the reaction I'd have I sought advice from CAB - as I predicted they basically said his 28 day warranty was largely irrelevant and the SOGA 1979 stated the goods needed to be free of defects (taking into account reasonable wear and tear) and that for a fault arising in the first 6months the responsibility lay with the trader to show the defect was not present at time of sale.
Armed with this I called him. He basically flattly refused to entertain rectifying the gearbox, as in his words it was wear and tear and not a 'major breakdown' which is all his warranty would cover. Regarding the steering he said he would take a look to check it wasn't dangerous, but called me an idiot when I said I had spoken to CAB and said in that case he wouldnt 'help' with the steering either, I should take him to court as he has won in these situation many times before and would again. I told him to be sensible about it and we agreed he would take a look tomorrow.
The knock has become worse though, so I have returned from my local Halfords; the lads there put it on the ramps and showed me the problem - excessive play in the steering arm between the rack and the ball joint, where the play was coming from the car would need stripping to ascertain, but in that condition it is extremely dangerous as if I came away completely I'd lose steering.
I have relayed this to my friendly dealer and all of a sudden he becomes concerned - he will sort it he says.
So he sorts the steering, but please can I have opinions on the gearbox fault - My opinion is that the car has a major fault and needs rectifying, given how soon it has manifested I believe he should resolve. I can't argue however that for now the car drives fine and hasn't actually broken down. I also understand a car of this age is not as new, but legally would this constitute fair wear and tear?
Thanks.
Firstly, the advice I'm after concerns what is reasonable to put down as wear and tear or a serviceable item and what would you expect to be rectified as a fault by a used car dealer.
I bought a used car, early 2008 registered with 91,000 miles on the clock, mid September.
Cosmetically the car is excellent and it has a full main dealer history, it drove well at test drive and I bought it subject to a whirring grating noise behind the dash being rectified.
At pick up I was advised the noise was due to an ill fitting pollen filter catching the vent fan - this had been replaced but the fan was still slightly noisy - I tested it and it seemed much quieter and agreeable.
On getting the car home I noted it was indicating a glow plug failure, I contacted the garage almost immediately and he asked me to try tapping the relay box to see if this resolved it and to check some numbers off the unit if not for him to order a replacement. This seemed reasonable, tapping didn't resolve anything so we arranged for the car to go in a week or so later.
In the interim I wasn't using the car much as I still had company car, but I noted this 'fan' noise was again loud as ever and fairly intrusive - reluctanly he agreed to review this matter too and did eventually replace the fan.
When I picked the car up the glowplug issue was sorted but the 'fan' was still noisy, he said I'd just have to live with it. I agreed and have since personally diagnosed a noisy AC compressor - putting that aside then...
I've only really started using the car this past week as my company car has gone back, and I noticed a knock on the steering at low speeed. I called him at the earliest opportunity and basically was fobbed off! He told me I 'can't keep coming to him everytime there's a bit of a noise'.
On my next long drive I noticed a low whine which seemed to be coming from the front left - knowing I'd get nowhere with this guy again I sought advice from a marque specialist - he reckons it sounds like a bearing in either the gearbox or diff (expensive).
Knowing the reaction I'd have I sought advice from CAB - as I predicted they basically said his 28 day warranty was largely irrelevant and the SOGA 1979 stated the goods needed to be free of defects (taking into account reasonable wear and tear) and that for a fault arising in the first 6months the responsibility lay with the trader to show the defect was not present at time of sale.
Armed with this I called him. He basically flattly refused to entertain rectifying the gearbox, as in his words it was wear and tear and not a 'major breakdown' which is all his warranty would cover. Regarding the steering he said he would take a look to check it wasn't dangerous, but called me an idiot when I said I had spoken to CAB and said in that case he wouldnt 'help' with the steering either, I should take him to court as he has won in these situation many times before and would again. I told him to be sensible about it and we agreed he would take a look tomorrow.
The knock has become worse though, so I have returned from my local Halfords; the lads there put it on the ramps and showed me the problem - excessive play in the steering arm between the rack and the ball joint, where the play was coming from the car would need stripping to ascertain, but in that condition it is extremely dangerous as if I came away completely I'd lose steering.
I have relayed this to my friendly dealer and all of a sudden he becomes concerned - he will sort it he says.
So he sorts the steering, but please can I have opinions on the gearbox fault - My opinion is that the car has a major fault and needs rectifying, given how soon it has manifested I believe he should resolve. I can't argue however that for now the car drives fine and hasn't actually broken down. I also understand a car of this age is not as new, but legally would this constitute fair wear and tear?
Thanks.
steve singh said:
What car and engine size?
What type of dealer?
Hi, it's an Alfa 159 - 1.9JTDmWhat type of dealer?
Edited by steve singh on Wednesday 9th October 18:46
Small independant dealer - to be fair all of his cars are immaculately presented and he seemed like the type of guy who would sort out an issues.
D1bram said:
steve singh said:
What car and engine size?
What type of dealer?
Hi, it's an Alfa 159 - 1.9JTDmWhat type of dealer?
Edited by steve singh on Wednesday 9th October 18:46
Small independant dealer - to be fair all of his cars are immaculately presented and he seemed like the type of guy who would sort out an issues.
However it's an alfa and he is a small dealer - if you got the car at a competitive price then maybe just suck up the additional costs or meet the dealer halfway on this?
He has shown some integrity re glowplug and picking up anything that could be dangerous in terms of steering?
However if you paid top whack for the car then i would go back and push him a bit harder on the issue,
hairykrishna said:
He sounds pretty reasonable to me. It's got 90000 on it - you can't expect the guy to replace everything. A bit of a whine from a bearing could be anything and isn't necessarily a major fault.
Yes I can see that view point too, I'm maybe a bit of a doom and gloom merchant but on the other hand a noisy transmission to me spells imminent major bills.Maybe I just need to turn the stereo up, but I do a lot of miles for work and just worry about being let down (I'm already having to rearrange Thursday/Friday to accomodate the steering repairs).
Yeah yeah, I know I shouldnt have bought an Alfa
steve singh said:
D1bram said:
steve singh said:
What car and engine size?
What type of dealer?
Hi, it's an Alfa 159 - 1.9JTDmWhat type of dealer?
Edited by steve singh on Wednesday 9th October 18:46
Small independant dealer - to be fair all of his cars are immaculately presented and he seemed like the type of guy who would sort out an issues.
However it's an alfa and he is a small dealer - if you got the car at a competitive price then maybe just suck up the additional costs or meet the dealer halfway on this?
He has shown some integrity re glowplug and picking up anything that could be dangerous in terms of steering?
However if you paid top whack for the car then i would go back and push him a bit harder on the issue,
I deliberately left the make out of the first post as personally I think that is largely irrelevant, I don't think it's correct to prejudice one way or another really.
I do expect less from this dealer than I would if it as a franchised main dealer and a UAC, hence accepting the noisy compressor etc....
I'm really just after as a many opinions as possible as to whether this is fair wear and tear or fault the dealer should rectify.
I don't want to waste my money repairing something I shouldn't have to, but on the other time I don't want to persue a claim which legally is not fair cop. If you see where I'm coming from.
OK, so more problems 
Car went back to him to sort the issue with the steering rack on Thursday, he couldn't find anything wrong with it and swore blind there was no play anywhere. He did then though tell me that the car was traded in to him with steering issues and that he had fitted a recon rack, power steering pump and a new power steering reservoir.
He said they found a cracked spring and replaced that (to be fair some of the noises I was hearing did sound spring like).
I picked it up yesterday and it does drive ok, but when I did a tight turn on to my drive it still felt like it was groaning, so this morning I nipped to my local Kwik Fit (who I trust before anyone start with the Kwik Fit bashing). They said exactly the same as Halfords, but elaborated that the whole rack was moving.
Next I called the RAC, they sent a patrol out who confirmed the same, he has given me a report and ticked the box saying; 'this vehicle is not considered safe to drive'.
I called the guy I bought the car from in between Kwik Fit and the RAC, he eventually returned my call while the RAC guy was finishing off his report.
Guy I bought it from started as usual, wouldn't let me finish before he's in with his arguments trying to put the responsibility with me (he interjects with irrational and irrelevant points, it's clear he doesn't care less); Eventually we agreed I return with the car tomorrow AM (RAC are recovering it there for me. His guy will inspect it again and then we will take it to an MOT station, I have said I will not accept one of his choosing.
Fortunately there is a council one very close to him (the car is OK to drive at the moment, just not a good idea to take more than a couple of miles according to RAC) which I think would be completely fair and impartial either way.
I'm utterly fed up, having to take more time off tomorrow morning and I'll be out of pocket now for a hire car.
Apparently the movement is quite pronounced (certainly what Halfords showed me was) so either his mechanic is not very competent or he is straight trying to have one over on me.
Car went back to him to sort the issue with the steering rack on Thursday, he couldn't find anything wrong with it and swore blind there was no play anywhere. He did then though tell me that the car was traded in to him with steering issues and that he had fitted a recon rack, power steering pump and a new power steering reservoir.
He said they found a cracked spring and replaced that (to be fair some of the noises I was hearing did sound spring like).
I picked it up yesterday and it does drive ok, but when I did a tight turn on to my drive it still felt like it was groaning, so this morning I nipped to my local Kwik Fit (who I trust before anyone start with the Kwik Fit bashing). They said exactly the same as Halfords, but elaborated that the whole rack was moving.
Next I called the RAC, they sent a patrol out who confirmed the same, he has given me a report and ticked the box saying; 'this vehicle is not considered safe to drive'.
I called the guy I bought the car from in between Kwik Fit and the RAC, he eventually returned my call while the RAC guy was finishing off his report.
Guy I bought it from started as usual, wouldn't let me finish before he's in with his arguments trying to put the responsibility with me (he interjects with irrational and irrelevant points, it's clear he doesn't care less); Eventually we agreed I return with the car tomorrow AM (RAC are recovering it there for me. His guy will inspect it again and then we will take it to an MOT station, I have said I will not accept one of his choosing.
Fortunately there is a council one very close to him (the car is OK to drive at the moment, just not a good idea to take more than a couple of miles according to RAC) which I think would be completely fair and impartial either way.
I'm utterly fed up, having to take more time off tomorrow morning and I'll be out of pocket now for a hire car.
Apparently the movement is quite pronounced (certainly what Halfords showed me was) so either his mechanic is not very competent or he is straight trying to have one over on me.
I'm unaware of the car's mechanics in question.
BUT could it be that if the whole rack is moving it's a bulkhead issue ?
This used to plague certain cars like Saab I had an Astra GTE with it too - ie you have to look not only at the rack but how / where it is mounted AND what that mount is fixed to.
BUT could it be that if the whole rack is moving it's a bulkhead issue ?
This used to plague certain cars like Saab I had an Astra GTE with it too - ie you have to look not only at the rack but how / where it is mounted AND what that mount is fixed to.
V8RX7 said:
I'm unaware of the car's mechanics in question.
BUT could it be that if the whole rack is moving it's a bulkhead issue ?
This used to plague certain cars like Saab I had an Astra GTE with it too - ie you have to look not only at the rack but how / where it is mounted AND what that mount is fixed to.
You certainly could be right, my thought at the moment though is that either way this is a pretty major fault/defect which given how recently I bought the car the seller should be rectifying.BUT could it be that if the whole rack is moving it's a bulkhead issue ?
This used to plague certain cars like Saab I had an Astra GTE with it too - ie you have to look not only at the rack but how / where it is mounted AND what that mount is fixed to.
My problem is that he is simply trying to deny there is any issue at all, he gives me a load of bluster eg; 'I see you as my friend not a customer, I would not be selling you a dangerous car, take it from me this car is perfect, if anything it is too good for used car...... yada yada' It's like I'm saying it's black and he's saying it's white.
When three separate mechanics have said the same thing - the rack is moving when it shouldn't be. It seems like no matter how many second opinions I get it's not good enough. He wasn't happy because Halfords and Kwik Fit (who are bl**dy B*****ds according to him!) didn't put it in writing. Well now the RAC have and that still is not good enough.
In fairness having had years of experience with such things I wouldn't believe any of those either.
If you have found a decent K Fit / Halfords / RAC man then you have found the exceptions.
I currently have a Supra that the steering isn't right on. I can't find the fault and several good mechanics are telling me there isn't one - but there damn well is - some things are hard to find / detect sometimes and everyone does make mistakes.
It seems like your seller is a decent guy - bear with it
If you have found a decent K Fit / Halfords / RAC man then you have found the exceptions.
I currently have a Supra that the steering isn't right on. I can't find the fault and several good mechanics are telling me there isn't one - but there damn well is - some things are hard to find / detect sometimes and everyone does make mistakes.
It seems like your seller is a decent guy - bear with it
Hang on a minute, I know there are some dodgy fast fit types out there, but when all three say exactly the same thing....
The bloke and his mechanic said there's no play anywhere - well I saw there was!
He's being far from reasonable, first thing he did today was threaten to charge me for the spring he changed.
The bloke and his mechanic said there's no play anywhere - well I saw there was!
He's being far from reasonable, first thing he did today was threaten to charge me for the spring he changed.
Play in the ends of the 159 rack is quite common, these ends can be replaced for about £15.
However if the whole rack is moving, sounds like they haven't refitted the refurb rack properly.
Groaning at full lock isn't uncommon in any car, however the early 159 power racks were filled with the wrong type of PAS oil and this causes creaks/groans and seal leaks. I think 'red' is the wrong colour for this rack but double check on Alfaowner forum.
Take it somewhere who knows these cars inside out, I see you are west yorkshire.
http://www.cwlear.co.uk/
http://www.alfa-tech.co.uk/
However if the whole rack is moving, sounds like they haven't refitted the refurb rack properly.
Groaning at full lock isn't uncommon in any car, however the early 159 power racks were filled with the wrong type of PAS oil and this causes creaks/groans and seal leaks. I think 'red' is the wrong colour for this rack but double check on Alfaowner forum.
Take it somewhere who knows these cars inside out, I see you are west yorkshire.
http://www.cwlear.co.uk/
http://www.alfa-tech.co.uk/
Edited by V6Alfisti on Sunday 13th October 14:31
Well, get the trader to put it in writing that there is either nothing wrong with the steering or that he is refusing to fix it. Have the car repaired at your own expense, retain the displaced parts and using these, and the reports from RAC/Halfords etc, as evidence take him to the Small Claims Court.
If you walk into somewhere like kwik fit or halfords and ask them to inspect the steering rack as you think its got play, it's defo going to have play (and a hefty bill to put it right)...
Fair play to the RAC guy though, its not in his interests to make up faults.
Best thing to do is what you are doing and take it to a council MOT station. This will throw up any serious faults and again, it's not in their interest to make up faults.
Fair play to the RAC guy though, its not in his interests to make up faults.
Best thing to do is what you are doing and take it to a council MOT station. This will throw up any serious faults and again, it's not in their interest to make up faults.
Nothing to add, other than I would never buy a car that has done 90,000 miles and not expect some problems, that's nearly four times around the world......
I tell a lie, I once bought an lovely three year old top of the range Ford Granada Ghia with a two litre Pinto engine that had done 85,000 miles, and ran it for another trouble free 50,000 miles, selling it for 75% of what I paid for it....although I considered myself to be very lucky.
Who'd be a used car dealer with all the potential aggro?.....
I genuinely hope the situation is resolved to your full satisfaction without too much expense....
I tell a lie, I once bought an lovely three year old top of the range Ford Granada Ghia with a two litre Pinto engine that had done 85,000 miles, and ran it for another trouble free 50,000 miles, selling it for 75% of what I paid for it....although I considered myself to be very lucky.
Who'd be a used car dealer with all the potential aggro?.....
I genuinely hope the situation is resolved to your full satisfaction without too much expense....
V6Alfisti said:
Play in the ends of the 159 rack is quite common, these ends can be replaced for about £15.
However if the whole rack is moving, sounds like they haven't refitted the refurb rack properly.
Groaning at full lock isn't uncommon in any car, however the early 159 power racks were filled with the wrong type of PAS oil and this causes creaks/groans and seal leaks. I think 'red' is the wrong colour for this rack but double check on Alfaowner forum.
Take it somewhere who knows these cars inside out, I see you are west yorkshire.
http://www.cwlear.co.uk/
http://www.alfa-tech.co.uk/
Really useful post thanks. I am being told it is the whole rack moving, not play in the ends.However if the whole rack is moving, sounds like they haven't refitted the refurb rack properly.
Groaning at full lock isn't uncommon in any car, however the early 159 power racks were filled with the wrong type of PAS oil and this causes creaks/groans and seal leaks. I think 'red' is the wrong colour for this rack but double check on Alfaowner forum.
Take it somewhere who knows these cars inside out, I see you are west yorkshire.
http://www.cwlear.co.uk/
http://www.alfa-tech.co.uk/
Edited by V6Alfisti on Sunday 13th October 14:31
During my googling I also came up with the wrong fluid colour issue, he said that he eventually found this to be the source of the problem and also fitted a new reservoir - all of which seems correct.
I suspect he has fitted a new rack incorrectly too.
To clarify, the groan is when you initially turn to the left, not on full lock (that I know from experience is something many cars just do).
Regarding the post about getting it sorted then claiming back from him, this is the avenue I am looking to go down, I will see how it goes tomorrow AM first obviously.
My problem is time, I'm all over the country this week (for which I really needed the car) and can't be waiting around until he gets himself out of bed (he doesn't seem to do much before midday). The frustration is that he's had the car once having had the fault described to him and he simply says there's no movement!
I'm stuck in a bit of a limbo here with £6k tied up in a car I'm being told should not be driven, if it was a cheaper car (<£2k) then I could have afforded to simply go out, get another one and sort that later. Similarly, had I gone a bit more (>£10k) I would have gone main dealer and it would have been dealt with more professionally.
Silly decision to buy at this price point in hindsight but I'm just going to have to make the best of it for now.
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