Discussion
I'm generally a nature lover, always have been ever since I was a kid.
Now, I spend a lot of time in the country side, mostly fishing or looking for fish, to me nature is a huge part of fishing and the times I have had a King Fisher land on my rod tip or a Barn Owl cruse past me at shoulder height scanning for voles count as great days.
So, it was with mixed feelings when I saw my first Otter yesterday.
I say mixed feelings because although I'm a nature lover I have seen first-hand the damage that these creatures do to fish stocks.
I used to fish the river Windrush, a tiny chalk stream, for Barbel, I could go and walk a half mile stretch and not see another angler, I could find so many fish that I had to actively try to avoid the Chubb to hit the better Barbel, then one year, the season opens and no fish. I was literally scratching for single Chubb after Otters had been through.
This is my concern now for my local river. An adult Otter consumes about 1.5kg of fish a day (according to google) and when its 1.5kg of larger fish, they don’t tend to eat the whole thing, just the bits they like.
My river (the Thame) doesn’t have a huge fish density, it tends to be dominated by larger old fish (as we now have Cray fish taking eggs/fry and Cormorants (non native) taking anything under about 1.5lb) so pretty much the only thing in there for the Otters to eat are the remaining older stock of Chubb and Barbel.
I know all the arguments, Otters were here for 1000's of years, there were always Otters and fish co-existing ect etc, but I'm not sure if I buy that. Our rivers are not in as great a state as the Environment Agency would have people believe with the near constant release of stories like "Thames cleaner than ever" and "Salmon found in Ex Sewage works" etc etc.
The reality is that in the south most rivers are massively over abstracted, Cormorants (which I never used to see 15 years ago, yet see every time I go near a water today) destroy whole small fish populations (google it) and Crayfish are destroying eggs and fry as well as out competing fish for safe areas under rocks etc etc. The sheer bio mass of crayfish in most waters is unbelievable.
The eel which was the Otters general main pray is now at about 10% the numbers that used to exist for many reasons (disease, over fishing) and the general shape of the river scape has changed with locks, weirs, canalisation and flood defence almost universal.
Ok, rant over, carry on.
Now, I spend a lot of time in the country side, mostly fishing or looking for fish, to me nature is a huge part of fishing and the times I have had a King Fisher land on my rod tip or a Barn Owl cruse past me at shoulder height scanning for voles count as great days.
So, it was with mixed feelings when I saw my first Otter yesterday.
I say mixed feelings because although I'm a nature lover I have seen first-hand the damage that these creatures do to fish stocks.
I used to fish the river Windrush, a tiny chalk stream, for Barbel, I could go and walk a half mile stretch and not see another angler, I could find so many fish that I had to actively try to avoid the Chubb to hit the better Barbel, then one year, the season opens and no fish. I was literally scratching for single Chubb after Otters had been through.
This is my concern now for my local river. An adult Otter consumes about 1.5kg of fish a day (according to google) and when its 1.5kg of larger fish, they don’t tend to eat the whole thing, just the bits they like.
My river (the Thame) doesn’t have a huge fish density, it tends to be dominated by larger old fish (as we now have Cray fish taking eggs/fry and Cormorants (non native) taking anything under about 1.5lb) so pretty much the only thing in there for the Otters to eat are the remaining older stock of Chubb and Barbel.
I know all the arguments, Otters were here for 1000's of years, there were always Otters and fish co-existing ect etc, but I'm not sure if I buy that. Our rivers are not in as great a state as the Environment Agency would have people believe with the near constant release of stories like "Thames cleaner than ever" and "Salmon found in Ex Sewage works" etc etc.
The reality is that in the south most rivers are massively over abstracted, Cormorants (which I never used to see 15 years ago, yet see every time I go near a water today) destroy whole small fish populations (google it) and Crayfish are destroying eggs and fry as well as out competing fish for safe areas under rocks etc etc. The sheer bio mass of crayfish in most waters is unbelievable.
The eel which was the Otters general main pray is now at about 10% the numbers that used to exist for many reasons (disease, over fishing) and the general shape of the river scape has changed with locks, weirs, canalisation and flood defence almost universal.
Ok, rant over, carry on.
All very true points. I used to fish the Thames 50 years ago and it was stuffed full of smaller fish - the disappearance of the Thames bleak is a mystery to me. As you say I never saw a cormorant yet now they are a commons sight so perhaps that's where the bleak have gone. Another non-native pest we have along the North American mink. These have been released by "greenies" and so called "do-gooders" from mink farms and have managed to establish themselves quite nicely. The irony is that they are even more vicious than the native otters so by releasing the mink the idiots are endangering the otters! Another aspect of the degradation of the Thames fish stock is that the water agency actually use the Thames as a water conduit, flushing water down from reservoirs in the Oxford area down to replenish those in Staines, Hampton and Barnes. This has had the effect of washing away decades of silt on the river bed and upsetting the balance of the river. I am also certain that this coincided with the discovery of lead poisoning among swans, my theory being that decades of lead which had sunk well into the silt was exposed and being swallowed swans digging into the newly exposed gravel river bed. As you say some of the worst and most noticeable damage to our rivers has been caused by excessive water extraction. In Hemel there is a park with a Victorian stone bridge crossing nothing but a slight hollow in the grass, 40 years ago this was the upper reaches of the river Chess! I am generally not in to the whole ecology scene but as an angler one really notices the changes to rivers which have been there for hundreds of years.
RichB said:
All very true points. I used to fish the Thames 50 years ago and it was stuffed full of smaller fish - the disappearance of the Thames bleak is a mystery to me. As you say I never saw a cormorant yet now they are a commons sight so perhaps that's where the bleak have gone. Another non-native pest we have along the North American mink. These have been released by "greenies" and so called "do-gooders" from mink farms and have managed to establish themselves quite nicely. The irony is that they are even more vicious than the native otters so by releasing the mink the idiots are endangering the otters! Another aspect of the degradation of the Thames fish stock is that the water agency actually use the Thames as a water conduit, flushing water down from reservoirs in the Oxford area down to replenish those in Staines, Hampton and Barnes. This has had the effect of washing away decades of silt on the river bed and upsetting the balance of the river. I am also certain that this coincided with the discovery of lead poisoning among swans, my theory being that decades of lead which had sunk well into the silt was exposed and being swallowed swans digging into the newly exposed gravel river bed. As you say some of the worst and most noticeable damage to our rivers has been caused by excessive water extraction. In Hemel there is a park with a Victorian stone bridge crossing nothing but a slight hollow in the grass, 40 years ago this was the upper reaches of the river Chess! I am generally not in to the whole ecology scene but as an angler one really notices the changes to rivers which have been there for hundreds of years.
Indeed, it all just points to the fact that we in the UK don't have wilderness, our landscape and (river scape) had been shaped by man for generations, from the highlands down. As such you can't just put an apex predator back into the mix on the basis that everything was ok 100's of years ago.People see Otters as cuddly cute things (Ask Terry Nutkins how cuddly they are) so how much damage will they have to do before a measure of control is put in place? I think we have Otters until the first person gets a picture of one eating a swan (and it happens), they bye bye Mr Otter.
Liokault said:
Indeed, it all just points to the fact that we in the UK don't have wilderness, our landscape and (river scape) had been shaped by man for generations, from the highlands down. As such you can't just put an apex predator back into the mix on the basis that everything was ok 100's of years ago.
People see Otters as cuddly cute things (Ask Terry Nutkins how cuddly they are) so how much damage will they have to do before a measure of control is put in place? I think we have Otters until the first person gets a picture of one eating a swan (and it happens), they bye bye Mr Otter.
I love Otters, could watch them for hours. Last year we took the kids to an Otter sanctuary near Launceston, got talking to one of the keepers & he was telling us they will kill literally anything that enters their pens, especially birds etc that land on the ponds!People see Otters as cuddly cute things (Ask Terry Nutkins how cuddly they are) so how much damage will they have to do before a measure of control is put in place? I think we have Otters until the first person gets a picture of one eating a swan (and it happens), they bye bye Mr Otter.
As you say, not quite the image most people have of them.
Very interesting points, especially about apex predators as, I am lucky that in my area there are dozens, if not hundreds of Red Kites and Buzzards hovering about both town and countryside. But what are they all eating? Is there enough to support this population?
Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
prand said:
Very interesting points, especially about apex predators as, I am lucky that in my area there are dozens, if not hundreds of Red Kites and Buzzards hovering about both town and countryside. But what are they all eating? Is there enough to support this population?
Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Apparently so:Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Otters eat lots of fish but also mice and small invertebrates such as crayfish. They primarily eat slow moving fish like suckers and catfish. Otters use their whiskers to locate crayfish, turtles, and fish along the bottom of the water. Sometimes otters work together as a team and scare the fish into small alcoves in the water where they can be caught easily. Otters even eat muskrats and beavers!
Do Otters eat Crays? Yes they do, but 1.5kg of protein is a hell of a lot of cray fish to get through.
My understanding is that Otters don’t have a preferred pray target. People tend to sat Eels are the favourite pray, but (and this is all from google) that is just because Eels have been historically very common and easy to catch (no longer the case, I haven’t caught an eel in 10 years). The otter just targets what’s easy to get.
So in a river (maybe 500 meters long, weir to outlet into bigger river) with maybe 30 barbel up to 15/16lb and maybe 100 4-5lb chubb and maybe 5-600 other fish over 1lb why would an Otter eat 100 crayfish when it could take a very easy to catch barbel?
(I have a friend who swears he saw a family of Mink, one adult, three cubs each with a cray in their mouths running up the bank)
My understanding is that Otters don’t have a preferred pray target. People tend to sat Eels are the favourite pray, but (and this is all from google) that is just because Eels have been historically very common and easy to catch (no longer the case, I haven’t caught an eel in 10 years). The otter just targets what’s easy to get.
So in a river (maybe 500 meters long, weir to outlet into bigger river) with maybe 30 barbel up to 15/16lb and maybe 100 4-5lb chubb and maybe 5-600 other fish over 1lb why would an Otter eat 100 crayfish when it could take a very easy to catch barbel?
(I have a friend who swears he saw a family of Mink, one adult, three cubs each with a cray in their mouths running up the bank)
LordHaveMurci said:
prand said:
Very interesting points, especially about apex predators as, I am lucky that in my area there are dozens, if not hundreds of Red Kites and Buzzards hovering about both town and countryside. But what are they all eating? Is there enough to support this population?
Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Apparently so:Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Otters eat lots of fish but also mice and small invertebrates such as crayfish. They primarily eat slow moving fish like suckers and catfish. Otters use their whiskers to locate crayfish, turtles, and fish along the bottom of the water. Sometimes otters work together as a team and scare the fish into small alcoves in the water where they can be caught easily. Otters even eat muskrats and beavers!
Liokault said:
LordHaveMurci said:
prand said:
Very interesting points, especially about apex predators as, I am lucky that in my area there are dozens, if not hundreds of Red Kites and Buzzards hovering about both town and countryside. But what are they all eating? Is there enough to support this population?
Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Apparently so:Do otters eat crayfish though? I'd have thought they would love them, and slower moving to catch than fish.
Otters eat lots of fish but also mice and small invertebrates such as crayfish. They primarily eat slow moving fish like suckers and catfish. Otters use their whiskers to locate crayfish, turtles, and fish along the bottom of the water. Sometimes otters work together as a team and scare the fish into small alcoves in the water where they can be caught easily. Otters even eat muskrats and beavers!
prand said:
Very interesting points, especially about apex predators as, I am lucky that in my area there are dozens, if not hundreds of Red Kites and Buzzards hovering about both town and countryside. But what are they all eating? Is there enough to support this population?
Interesting point on kites!I moved into a house 3 years ago, the old couple opposite feed the birds on their front lawn (just to irritate the guy next door lol). When I work from home, I get to watch the kites come and take meat and bones, great sight.
Its only recently that I have seen kites regularly taking road kill. So maybe the population is growing to the point that they can’t survive on hand outs.
Something I find really interesting is seeing literally hundreds of kites on the ground in a field just standing there. I can only assume they were eating worms.
One big difference between kites and otters, otters will defend a territory (a male can hold 40 square miles, a female much less, google again), and its free water space that controls population size rather than food, with kites it’s food availability that stops them spreading over the whole country.
Liokault said:
RichB said:
I doubt it. The reference to turtles, catfish, muskrats and beavers suggests this quote relates to another country.
Turtles in UK, CheckCatfish in UK, Check (including in rivers)
Bevers in UK, Check
Muskrats in UK ..... um
plasticpig said:
Liokault said:
In the UK?
Otters just don't eat fish; mice, frogs, crabs and, eggs are also on the menu. My understanding is that they take what is easy first, large fish that haven’t seen an otter in many generations, then work on the harder stuff like coots and frogs.
RichB said:
Liokault said:
RichB said:
I doubt it. The reference to turtles, catfish, muskrats and beavers suggests this quote relates to another country.
Turtles in UK, CheckCatfish in UK, Check (including in rivers)
Bevers in UK, Check
Muskrats in UK ..... um
Yes, Wells cat fish grow huge and will, if left long enough probably eat Otters. We are a long way from a self-sustaining wild population though.
It is remarkable that currently the biggest killer of Otters is the road.
897sma said:
Saw him by my local canal a few weeks ago. Bold as brass popping in and out of the hole and swimming past us 
That's is a mink. Look cute but a vicous killer... and they kill just for the sake of it. They'll empty a pond of fish or kill a whole brood of ducklings and eat none. If there's a culprit for reducing fish and wildfowl numbers they're it.Gassing Station | All Creatures Great & Small | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff