To Cerb or not to Cerb...

[redleicester]

Hello to you all, I'm an interloper from the Chimaera forum, hope you don't mind me invading your patch.

I've spent the last few days going back through the archive of posts in the Cerb area to try and answer as many of my daft questions as I can, but there were a few I thought I just ought to ask anyway!

Having browsed through the threads, there seems to be an inordinate amount of pessimism, and frankly as one other poster put it, having read all this I could reasonably assume that any and every Cerbera is an unmitigated disaster area, and should be avoided at all costs. I sincerely hope this isn't the case....

I'm coming from a 98R Chimaera 400, and the main reasons for the change are thus - baby on the way, wife expects "sensible" four-seater (well fourseater anyway!), plus having done a good deal of driving tuition and several trackdays since catching the TVR bug, I'm now lusting after a bit more get-up-and-go. With the baby on the way, the wife musn't notice any undue purchase expenditure (once it's here, it's too late!) so I'm looking at cars between £15-18k. That'll leave me comfortably in pocket for unforseen costs...

So, on to the silly questions:

V8 / S6? I'm a V8 nut, so I've assumed that I would go down the same route again, and it's the same price for any of the three for insurance. Are the Speed Six engines quite as dire as everyone predicts? The common thread seems to be £3k give or take per annum for maintenance - well two years ago I spent six trying to keep a Jag XK8 alive, so that doesn't scare me too much.... Is the S6 drastically different to drive than the V8s?

Reliability? Not going to bother asking that one - you buy a TVR because you're prepared to take the rought with the smooth. It happens, get over it, drive it.

Baby Seats - Do I need to be looking for any special mounting points / fixtures already in a car, or is this something I can have fitted later? How happy are you chaps with your baby seating arrangements?

Driving experience - Is is drastically different to a Chimaera / Griffith? Bearing in mind I have no power steering.... The wife would want to drive it occasionally - I don't mind this in the Chim so long as I'm watching, as she hasn't a clue what oversteer is, and tend to be a bit brutal with throttle and brakes - not a good combination!

Daily vs Weekend - In the Chim my experiance has been that using as a daily driver has kept the worst of the gremlins at bay - I've done 12k since may, and she's not missed a beat. Yes there were times I regretted the unpacked back boxes, or longed for a quieter cruise, but on the whole she's been a grin a minute.

Can the same be said of the Cerb? Are they quieter inside than Chims/Griffs? Do they cruise well, or am I going to be thanking God for my RoadAngel keeping me from blasting off into the stratosphere?!

Lastly, I've tried contacting both James Agger and
Rob Ingleby by email, and haven't had any reply from either - There are a couple of tempting cars, one right in Robs front garden, and I'm now getting itchy feet to get on and do the change.... Are they both away/on holiday/dead/incapable of using email?!

Sorry for such a huge long post, and many thanks for all your help.

H.

[Tyre Smoke]

I did exactly what you did - 98 Chim 4.0 to a 4.5 V8 Cerb.

Have a Recaro baby seat in the back - no probs and a lot cheaper if you buy it direct from their website www.recaro.co.uk

I have a sports exhaust on the Cerb and it's fine for longer runs, you have a roof after all which reduces the noise (you'll want to keep a window open )

Feel free to email me via my profile or phone me for any questions I can answer.

Just do it, you won't look back.

[flashheart]

Hello H. I will try and answer your questions as best as I know being a 4.5 owner for 18 months. You are right with pessimism but a lot of people have been stung financially and perhaps a lot are sick to death of things going wrong both major and minor.

The first snag is the price you pay. Spending £15-18k and leaving some in reserve for the 'inevitable' might be the wrong way of looking at it. Why not pay £20-23 and get a better car? DO NOT quote me on this

I have a V8. I have a feeling as many will say V8 as will say S6. Early versions (which is what you are looking at with that amount of cash) of both engines have had their problems. Lots of people have claimed off warranties but if it goes wrong it could cost £5k. See my comments above. The V8 will not sound the same as your Chimp as it is a completely different engine. Some say the S6 is faster/more responsive but I do not care. I have a monster V8. Penis extension it is - I need all the help I can get!

Looked at baby seats myself once. Just buy and they fit in. Might need a tweak with mountings but I understand no major snags. They are in 2 parts and change as child gets older so you don't need to bin them too soon. Kids <7/9 yrs old are all that will really fit in the back, there is not that much room.

Driving wise it may be different due to longer wheelbase ie not as twitchy. Power steering helps although it is still quite firm. Has less ground clearance so bottoming-out is not uncommon. Suspension is firm and will drive you up the wall on North Yorkshire back roads if you drive on them for long enough although I have found the faster you go the better. Aaarf. Not much body roll. I like the way it rides.

Loads of people drive them everyday, clutch is stiff and can be a pain if you are stop-go and loads of people take them out once a week. 'They' say use them as often as you can but isn't that the same of every car? If you only use it once a week buy a trickle charger or you could be courting trouble.

They are noisy (aren't they all), I've been out in my mates chimp and it seems to be the same volume. They cruise fab at any speed above 50, they tend to hunt if the revs are low and your foot is mostly off the pedal. I haven't got a Road Angel, drive like an arse and haven't got caught yet. It is a case of where and when.

Would recommend JA or RI to help. I didn't and wish I had. Like you I had a burning desire to have one and went for the first one I saw without knowing anything about them at all. I have learnt a lot over the last 18 mths and probably would have not bought my car with hindsight. That being said I love it and wouldn't swap it at all.

You can spend a lot of money. My 6k service cost £2200 with a new clutch, door controller etc, etc. My 12k, just done, cost £1800 with new tyres, brakes etc, etc. Next time though it should be cheaper!

Overall, go for it. I love mine warts and all. Yes it burns a hole in my pocket occasionally but I have to ask myself why do I go to work?!

Cheers

Flash

[RUSSELLM]

redleicester said:

hope you don't mind me invading your patch.

Havn't seen that chat up line for ages

[BT&J_S_G]

Redleicester, In the year I had my Cerb, it cost me about 80p in unexpected bills for a blown fuse. Only other thing was the CV gaiters splitting, but the same'll happen on any car given time/if left standing around. General rule of thumb is: twice the cost of running a Chim/Griff, or another way: budget £3k per year to be sure.

An S6, if recently built/rebuilt, should be as reliable as a V8. Earlier, non-rebuilt S6s will more than likely cost a bit on having a rebuild. But that's kind of factored into the price of them being several £k cheaper to buy to begin with.

Other questions/answers: the S6 will be a bit easier to drive than the V8. I ran mine (4.2) every day, come rain/snow/fog/etc. Could happily cruise along in it without excessive noise (except from the exhaust ) and other issues at 140+. With the windows up, and before putting the sports 'zorst on, it was positively quiet (unless I was really caning it). It was also a pussycat in traffic, but some aren't so low-speed friendly.

[SXS]

If I was you, I'd get a well sorted 4.2 16k price bracket and spend 2k on it to bring her up to spec - and you're laughing after that - oh, until something goes bang, whence why you need a bank account for the cerbera - unlike your chim - this ones not using easily available parts - ie startermotors, tvr only engine etc etc...

[calamada]

I'd give Rob Ingleby a call on his mobile [phone]) during a weekday. If £15k is what you want to spend, he will find you the best example he can for that money. He'll give you some guidance as well with regards to models and specs. He charges a finders fee of £600 which covers pretty much everything inc. the essential HPI check. You mentioned that he hasn't returned your e-mail, but I can only assume he's been out and about looking at cars. He's always returned my calls and has been very helpful throughout - Planning to pick up my 4.5 cerbie on Friday!

>> Edited by calamada on Wednesday 3rd November 22:21

>> Edited by calamada on Wednesday 3rd November 22:22

>> Edited by calamada on Wednesday 3rd November 22:25

[UKbob]

I could be wrong, but cerbera prices seem to have come down in the last 18 months. Last I remember (reading this forum way back then, I really havn't read much here since) 25k was the budget for a good cerbie. Was at dream machines this week, and was told 25k for a sorted and in good condition cerb.

I seem to remember that 16k cerberas (18 months ago) were to be avoided like the plague. Now I might be remembering wrong, but my question is this - have prices really plummeted that much?

Would 22k buy a top notch cerb today (a car that shouldn't/doesnt have problems, and is in very good condition aesthetically)? What is the average price for someone whose priority is good condition car number 1, and price number 2 (assuming the person wanted to spend as little as possible that is) -Rob

[SXS]

Its all down to:

* was she run in sweet from new
* was she tracked heavily
* was she 7000+ rev'd constantly
* was she driven in 5th gear at 40mph
* was she regularly serviced
* was the oil changed regularly, and not only at service intervals
* has she ever jumped kerbs (wheels wont give much, as they can be replaced as you know)
* was she warmed up properly before road use
* was she used on motorways a lot more than roads (a good thing if she was, normally better run in and high miles will have removed a lot of niggles by the way of the previous owner(s) paying out of their teeth to fix the problems)

you already know all this - but I just thought I'd mention it for highlighting's sake...

16k for one that comes from a reputable owner (not a dealer!) then go for it... betweem 18-25k miles is ideal IMO

But a near new 4.5 - you cant go wrong - but remember less miles means there are little niggles waiting to happen and you'll have to pay the premium of buying one thats been driven less... but then at least you can drive more of her before worrying about an engine rebuild - which again might be in the equation if sod's law decides to strike you down with envy!

[UKbob]

[quote=SXS ]Its all down to:

* was she run in sweet from new
* was she tracked heavily
* was she 7000+ rev'd constantly
* was she driven in 5th gear at 40mph
* was she regularly serviced
* was the oil changed regularly, and not only at service intervals
* has she ever jumped kerbs (wheels wont give much, as they can be replaced as you know)
* was she warmed up properly before road use
* was she used on motorways a lot more than roads

....16k for one that comes from a reputable owner (not a dealer!) then go for it... betweem 18-25k miles is ideal IMO [/quote] Do people that have bought cerberas find that PH provides a good platform to assess whether or not an owner is reputable though?

[redleicester]

Good question UKBob, are Phers reliable?!

As it happens my wife has fallen in love with one of the cars advertised here - it's something to do with the colour scheme, but I have to say she seems to have picked the right sort of age and spec too - 4.2 PAS, A/C etc, and the right price circa 18k.

SXS - I hear what you say about recent rebuilds etc, bt some advertisers have listed huge amounts of work that have been done - new diffs, ECUs, alarms, Nitrons (?), radiators etc plus engine rebuilt or replaced.

Isn't that something of a quandary? There's to schools of thought:

1. The car has had everything replaced and should now be perfect...
2. It was a friday car to begin with, and this is only the start of the problems...

I'm a little apprehensive as my pre-TVR car was a Jaguar XK8, and I had new radiators (twice), new gearbox, and new cooling system all in the space of five months. The dealer then reckoned on it being a well sorted car, but by then I'd lost all faith in it and simply didn't trust it anymore - I was just sitting waiting for something else to fall off!

[trooper1212]

redleicester said:

Isn't that something of a quandary? There's to schools of thought: 1. The car has had everything replaced and should now be perfect... 2. It was a friday car to begin with, and this is only the start of the problems...

It's a good question, that I think can be answered by finding out who did all the work. If the work was done by a good independent or dealer, then I'd be happier to have had the work done. If it was done by any old garage, or someone/where with a bad reputation then I'd walk away.

The original build quality of the Cerbera is shocking. A lot of the work that I have had done is due to that and I now have a reliable car. (Have a look at some of my old posts from a year ago to see the problems). Personally, if I was to buy another Cerb, i'd prefer an earlier car to have had all the usual replaced items already done. (Clutch, cams, shocks, etc...)

[UKbob]

trooper1212 said:

Personally, if I was to buy another Cerb, i'd prefer an earlier car to have had all the usual replaced items already done. (Clutch, cams, shocks, etc...)

What do you consider earlier? re: my comments about PH being a reliable way of measuring the car, I was actually thinking about the engine. Sure, one can see via ph what work has been done, but one of the biggest costs one could face is a complete engine rebuild due to the car having been thrashed.

I dont mean to sound negative, I suppose with the average cost its only natural to wonder.

When people say 3k per cerbera per year, I assume that is PLUS insurance, right?

What price would you expect to pay for a fully sorted very good condition cerbera? Would 22k likely buy you one?

[redleicester]

Okay Trooper, I see your point!

In that case, if I'm looking at a 4.2 circa 1996 / 97, what ought I be looking for that should / might have been done?

[trooper1212]

UKbob said:

What price would you expect to pay for a fully sorted very good condition cerbera? Would 22k likely buy you one?

6 months ago, you would have been able to get a sorted early cerb (pre 99-00) for £19k, in it's original specification. Add on a grand or so for a set of nitrons, headlight upgrade and spiders.
Over the past 6 months the prices seem to have spiralled downwards and you can probably get similar for £17k upwards now.

£22k should buy you a very nice example.
This is all based on private prices, add however much you think the peace of mind a dealer car is worth on top of that.

>> Edited by trooper1212 on Thursday 4th November 10:52

[trooper1212]

redleicester said:

Okay Trooper, I see your point! In that case, if I'm looking at a 4.2 circa 1996 / 97, what ought I be looking for that should / might have been done?

Ok, just random thoughts in no particular order.

Replacement clutch (including cylinders, both master and slave).
Cams replaced.
A 96/97 is on the cusp of the supsension upright recall, so you'd need to check that has been done. An early 96 doesn't need it, a late 96 does.
My early 96 car had a manufacturing fault in the valve springs which meant they all needed to be replaced, but I can't say whether that means all cars of that era will have the same fault (and you're lucky if you can diagnose it without taking the engine apart.)
The headlight and dim/dip box will have shorted out at some point on a car that age, so check that to see how the wiring looks.
Look for a car with Nitrons if possible, as the stock suspension is poor and could be on it's last legs at that sort of age anyway.
Air con belt will be worn if it hasn't already been replaced and the air con will most likely need a recharge.

Any or all of the above are points to be aware of, but each car is different and part of the problem of TVR in that era was the parts supply, lots of different suppliers were used in a very short timescale so it's very difficult to say you will have specific problems on a car. From one week to the next they could have been built with different parts stock.

[redleicester]

Okay we're getting there... basically only buy a Cerbera if you:

1. Have pockets deep enough to sink the titanic
2. You're a mechanic and can write everything against tax.
3. You are the world's most patient man and have the world's most patient wife.
4. Oh sod it, go on then, it'll be a laugh.

Thankfully I have a little too much of the devil-may-care attitude about me, so the latter is probably the category for me!

Couple more daft questions:

Can heated seats be retrofitted? (bear in mind I'm going to use it right the way through winter)

Can the heated screen be retrofitted? (see above!)

Do they all have change-up lights / bleeps or whatever, or only certain models?

[davidd]

UKbob said:

When people say 3k per cerbera per year, I assume that is PLUS insurance, right?

and fuel, and tax, and oil, and probably tyres..

Definately worth it if you can justify the cost

[trooper1212]

redleicester said:

Do they all have change-up lights / bleeps or whatever, or only certain models?

They all have them, but you can turn off the beep if you want to. Mine doesn't even beep on indicating.

[shell]

trooper1212 said:

redleicester said: Do they all have change-up lights / bleeps or whatever, or only certain models? They all have them, but you can turn off the beep if you want to. Mine doesn't even beep on indicating.

Change up beep, mine must be turned off at least i think it is what is the limit is the beep set to on a 4.2? Should you want to, how do you turn it on again?