Thinking about large format
Discussion
I rather fancy shooting some architecture and interiors so have been thinking about getting a 5x4 camera as a basic kit can be picked up on ebay for a couple of hundred quid. I take it that large format film is still the way to go in this area or is there now some clever photoshop way to straighten up all those converging verticals?
jurbie said:
I rather fancy shooting some architecture and interiors so have been thinking about getting a 5x4 camera as a basic kit can be picked up on ebay for a couple of hundred quid. I take it that large format film is still the way to go in this area or is there now some clever photoshop way to straighten up all those converging verticals?
If your concern is perspective, try a tilt/shift lens on a DSLR (or one of those enlarger lens strap-on jobbies). If that's too expensive, Photoshop or similar. I run puny CS2 and it fixes everything I need fixed.I shoot commercial architecture and interiors, where perspective is crucial.
Your choices, in order of expense:
1) Correct in post processing, Capture One Pro is superb for this, and an option I sometimes use if I have to go ultra ultra wide (14mm on full frame), ideal for tiny rooms. £150 IIRC for Capture One.
2) Large format film, you can buy a cheap Sinar, Toyo or Cambo for a fraction of their price when new. There is a lot to learn, you have no internal meter so you'll need a lightmeter, and learn how to use it. Focus is by extending the front standard from the rear, on rails. You'll be working upside down on ground glass, under a darkcloth, which in dark interiors can be hard work. Quality is superb but of course you have to get it developed and printed or scanned, all of which takes time. It is not a quick way of working, which has its upsides, and of course its downsides. £3-400 will get you set up.
3) Tilt / Shift lenses on a dSLR. Canon call theirs TS-E, Nikon PC. They are quite quick to use and if you're used to shooting with a dSLR you'll soon be sorted. Shift is easy to get your head around, and tilt isn't used that much for architecture. You're looking from £500 or so for a used tilt shift lens
4) Medium format with movements. The Fujifilm GX680 is the king for this. You've got movements, but a body which will be much more familiar if you're used to dSLRs. The downsides are there aren't many wide angles available, and of course you're back to film. On the upside medium format is much easier to work with than large format and far more readily processed. £800-1000 or so for a GX680 setup
5) Either a medium or large format body with a digital back. This gives you the flexibility of a film based system with the instant results of digital. Digital backs are still expensive, you can get one for a grand or so but you have to shoot tethered, that is attached to a computer, so not a quick system to transport. The next generation of backs start at £2-3000 and allows untethered use. I use a Leaf Aptus 22 which is around £3000 now. The upside is astonishing quality, the files are, in my opinion and that of one of my friends who owns a high end professional camera dealer, 3 or 4 times better than a corresponding dslr file. No antialiasing filter means very sharp shots, straight out of the back. They are 16 bit native, so plenty of room to push and pull the file. The dynamic range is better too. The downside, apart from the expense, is they don't do high ISO, which I don't find a problem, I use mine at the ISO 25 native resolution. Of course you still need a system to run the back on, I use a combination of a Mamiya 645 AFDii which is just like using a dSLR and a Linhof Technikardan 23 which is a 6x9 technical camera, so smaller and lighter than 5x4 systems but with the full movements (shift, rise and fall, tilt and swing on both front and rear standards).
6) A digital back on a technical camera. This is the Rolls Royce of architectural setups. An Alpa 12 would be the king, with a top of the range digital back (Phase One IQ280) and a range of lenses I priced it up in the region of £75-80k
Cheaper options include Linhof Techno and Cambo Wide.
I hope this helps and I've not scared you, happy to help with any questions if you have any.
Your choices, in order of expense:
1) Correct in post processing, Capture One Pro is superb for this, and an option I sometimes use if I have to go ultra ultra wide (14mm on full frame), ideal for tiny rooms. £150 IIRC for Capture One.
2) Large format film, you can buy a cheap Sinar, Toyo or Cambo for a fraction of their price when new. There is a lot to learn, you have no internal meter so you'll need a lightmeter, and learn how to use it. Focus is by extending the front standard from the rear, on rails. You'll be working upside down on ground glass, under a darkcloth, which in dark interiors can be hard work. Quality is superb but of course you have to get it developed and printed or scanned, all of which takes time. It is not a quick way of working, which has its upsides, and of course its downsides. £3-400 will get you set up.
3) Tilt / Shift lenses on a dSLR. Canon call theirs TS-E, Nikon PC. They are quite quick to use and if you're used to shooting with a dSLR you'll soon be sorted. Shift is easy to get your head around, and tilt isn't used that much for architecture. You're looking from £500 or so for a used tilt shift lens
4) Medium format with movements. The Fujifilm GX680 is the king for this. You've got movements, but a body which will be much more familiar if you're used to dSLRs. The downsides are there aren't many wide angles available, and of course you're back to film. On the upside medium format is much easier to work with than large format and far more readily processed. £800-1000 or so for a GX680 setup
5) Either a medium or large format body with a digital back. This gives you the flexibility of a film based system with the instant results of digital. Digital backs are still expensive, you can get one for a grand or so but you have to shoot tethered, that is attached to a computer, so not a quick system to transport. The next generation of backs start at £2-3000 and allows untethered use. I use a Leaf Aptus 22 which is around £3000 now. The upside is astonishing quality, the files are, in my opinion and that of one of my friends who owns a high end professional camera dealer, 3 or 4 times better than a corresponding dslr file. No antialiasing filter means very sharp shots, straight out of the back. They are 16 bit native, so plenty of room to push and pull the file. The dynamic range is better too. The downside, apart from the expense, is they don't do high ISO, which I don't find a problem, I use mine at the ISO 25 native resolution. Of course you still need a system to run the back on, I use a combination of a Mamiya 645 AFDii which is just like using a dSLR and a Linhof Technikardan 23 which is a 6x9 technical camera, so smaller and lighter than 5x4 systems but with the full movements (shift, rise and fall, tilt and swing on both front and rear standards).
6) A digital back on a technical camera. This is the Rolls Royce of architectural setups. An Alpa 12 would be the king, with a top of the range digital back (Phase One IQ280) and a range of lenses I priced it up in the region of £75-80k
Cheaper options include Linhof Techno and Cambo Wide.I hope this helps and I've not scared you, happy to help with any questions if you have any.
markmullen said:
5) Either a medium or large format body with a digital back. This gives you the flexibility of a film based system with the instant results of digital. Digital backs are still expensive, you can get one for a grand or so but you have to shoot tethered, that is attached to a computer, so not a quick system to transport. The next generation of backs start at £2-3000 and allows untethered use. I use a Leaf Aptus 22 which is around £3000 now. The upside is astonishing quality, the files are, in my opinion and that of one of my friends who owns a high end professional camera dealer, 3 or 4 times better than a corresponding dslr file. No antialiasing filter means very sharp shots, straight out of the back. They are 16 bit native, so plenty of room to push and pull the file. The dynamic range is better too. The downside, apart from the expense, is they don't do high ISO, which I don't find a problem, I use mine at the ISO 25 native resolution. Of course you still need a system to run the back on, I use a combination of a Mamiya 645 AFDii which is just like using a dSLR and a Linhof Technikardan 23 which is a 6x9 technical camera, so smaller and lighter than 5x4 systems but with the full movements (shift, rise and fall, tilt and swing on both front and rear standards).
I hope you don't me asking Mark, but roughly how much was your / is a good MF digital set up? (Used!) Is the Pentax 645D thought of well? They've dropped in price a fair amount.nellyleelephant said:
I hope you don't me asking Mark, but roughly how much was your / is a good MF digital set up? (Used!) Is the Pentax 645D thought of well? They've dropped in price a fair amount.
For a back you're looking £2-3k upwards, but the sky is the limit. The cameras and lenses aren't dear any more, an AFDii body is about a grand, Mamiya AF lenses from £500 or so, I've got 45mm f2.8, 80mm f2.8, 150mm f3.5 and an older MF 210mm f4.The 645D is a lovely camera, but somewhat inflexible in that it is an integrated system, similar to the Hasselblad H3/H4/H5 systems, they are an all in one camera. If you go for a back you can change what you use it on, I mainly use mine on a Mamiya 645 AFDii which is just like using a big dSLR, if I want movements I use it on a Linhof Technikardan, that degree of flexibility isn't possible with an an integrated camera like the 645D. Similarly when I upgrade my back (hopefully next year to a Phase P45+) I'm not paying extra for a camera, shutter etc, just the imaging module.
On the other hand the Pentax is weather sealed, which is a plus. They have dropped the price a fair wedge and there is rumours of a mk2 version coming out.
markmullen said:
I shoot commercial architecture and interiors, where perspective is crucial.
4) Medium format with movements. The Fujifilm GX680 is the king for this. You've got movements, but a body which will be much more familiar if you're used to dSLRs. The downsides are there aren't many wide angles available, and of course you're back to film. On the upside medium format is much easier to work with than large format and far more readily processed. £800-1000 or so for a GX680 setup
That was my weapon of choice for commercial architectural interiors before I retired, so easy to work with as compared to my Linhof.4) Medium format with movements. The Fujifilm GX680 is the king for this. You've got movements, but a body which will be much more familiar if you're used to dSLRs. The downsides are there aren't many wide angles available, and of course you're back to film. On the upside medium format is much easier to work with than large format and far more readily processed. £800-1000 or so for a GX680 setup
I found the 65mm lens wide enough for what I had to do,
in fact I probably used the 80mm more.
When I bought it in about 1998 the Fuji rep said they were going to bring
out a digital back for it - that never happened
Elderly said:
markmullen said:
I shoot commercial architecture and interiors, where perspective is crucial.
4) Medium format with movements. The Fujifilm GX680 is the king for this. You've got movements, but a body which will be much more familiar if you're used to dSLRs. The downsides are there aren't many wide angles available, and of course you're back to film. On the upside medium format is much easier to work with than large format and far more readily processed. £800-1000 or so for a GX680 setup
That was my weapon of choice for commercial architectural interiors before I retired, so easy to work with as compared to my Linhof.4) Medium format with movements. The Fujifilm GX680 is the king for this. You've got movements, but a body which will be much more familiar if you're used to dSLRs. The downsides are there aren't many wide angles available, and of course you're back to film. On the upside medium format is much easier to work with than large format and far more readily processed. £800-1000 or so for a GX680 setup
I found the 65mm lens wide enough for what I had to do,
in fact I probably used the 80mm more.
When I bought it in about 1998 the Fuji rep said they were going to bring
out a digital back for it - that never happened
Camera porn it is.Elderly said:
When I bought it in about 1998 the Fuji rep said they were going to bring
out a digital back for it - that never happened
BTW I'm sure you know Kapture Group do a solution to using a back on it. You're welcome to borrow my Aptus for a go, or I can email you a raw file to play with, to see what they're capable of, you could bring the old girl back to life.out a digital back for it - that never happened
Thank you all especially Mark, great advice as ever and good to know that 5x4 isn't the only way forward. I'm no stranger to the cameras but I am concerned that part of my thought process is being driven by some weird nostalgia and once the novelty of mucking about with film, light meters darkslides and processing wears off then I'll be left with a bit of a white elephant.
nellyleelephant said:
Looking at the Fuji, would it not be possible to fit a digital back to it? Or is it just a select few older bodies that allow this?
Yes but (when I last looked) they were a smaller format than the 6x8 and so the lenses become effectively too 'long' for my intended use.Mark - Thanks for the offer of being able to play with your Leaf
but after my retirement I sold the whole Fuji outfit.
nellyleelephant said:
Carrying this thread on, anyone know anything about the Sinar F1?
A similar principle to my Technikardan, a lighter version of the P designed to be used in the field.I've not used an F1 but I have used Sinar gear in the studio when I used to assist and it was always beautifully made.
markmullen said:
A similar principle to my Technikardan, a lighter version of the P designed to be used in the field.
I've not used an F1 but I have used Sinar gear in the studio when I used to assist and it was always beautifully made.
Thanks.I've not used an F1 but I have used Sinar gear in the studio when I used to assist and it was always beautifully made.
Is there an online resource for all this? A LF version of Talk Photography?
Sorry for the thread hijack, bloke at work is selling his Sinar F1, 3 lenses and various other bits.
nellyleelephant said:
Thanks.
Is there an online resource for all this? A LF version of Talk Photography?
Sorry for the thread hijack, bloke at work is selling his Sinar F1, 3 lenses and various other bits.
In my own research of the subject I found http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index..., I've not had a proper look around but seems interesting. Don't worry about the thread hijack, it's all interesting.Is there an online resource for all this? A LF version of Talk Photography?
Sorry for the thread hijack, bloke at work is selling his Sinar F1, 3 lenses and various other bits.
jurbie said:
In my own research of the subject I found http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index..., I've not had a proper look around but seems interesting. Don't worry about the thread hijack, it's all interesting.
Cheers!
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