Network rail to close 500 crossings- right or wrong?

[saaby93]

Network rail to close 500 crossings

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24754358

for 'safety' reasons

Is this the real answer to improving safety?

[Cyder]

No, better education is needed, yet again this country panders to the lowest common denominator of the general public.

Edited by Cyder on Thursday 31st October 12:38

[scubadude]

Its pandering to the lowest common denominator (ie- Stupid people)

Its a plague throughout the modern world, trying to make the unsafe safe. Leave the world alone, we need alittle danger, it allows humans with common sense to suceed and the stupid to fail, hopefully Darwinism should then improve the race... while we make it easy for stupid people to succeed we all suffer :-)

You could extend this to social benefits but at some point people get all bent out of shape about human rights, although I don't see "being a moron" as a Human right.

[Cyder]

In fact I've changed my mind. There's plenty of education, if people are so fking stupid that they still can't work out that they shouldn't be on the crossing when there's a train approaching then that should be their lookout.

I feel sorry for the train drivers involved, but I guess that the percentage of drivers affected each year is very small.

[Podie]

It's always someone else's fault, isn't it? People treat the crossings with contempt and then there is outcry when someone gets killed. Darwinism in action, IMO.

[Simpo Two]

Podie said:

Darwinism in action, IMO.

Quite. Only 9 people were killed on the railway last year, so 'death by level crossing' must be about number 1,000 on the country's list of deaths by event. I expect more people die falling down stairs, but they don't ban stairs.

There are certain things that the media just obsesses with and chews over like a terrier with a sock. This is one, phone hacking is another, interviewing people who don't have power two days after a storm is another. The politician who was a bit curt to a jobsworth policeman is another - how much public money is that costing?

You take a chance on the crossing, or are too stupid to see it, and get killed as a result. This country needs to get a grip on reality - and also stop the litigious culture that does little but make everything more expensive and difficult and makes everyone paranoid.

'Olivia's mother Tina Hughes told the Transport Select Committee the firm said it had to "consider the cost of safety versus the value of life". She said it was "an... inhuman way to speak to me as a bereaved parent" Yes it was but it's true. How much is one life worth? £1M? £10M? The entire GDP of the UK? How much DO you spend to save a life? Sometimes you just have to file it under 'tragic accident' and move on, not run to the media and try for £1M.

Edited by Simpo Two on Thursday 31st October 13:02

[MitchT]

Cyder said:

No, better education is needed, yet again this country panders to the lowest common denominator of the general public.

I agree, but the problem is, the actions of the lowest common denominator of the public can affect a whole load of other people, not just them. No amount of education will stop a twentysomething woman from trying to get home in time for East Enders.

[saaby93]

MitchT said:

I agree, but the problem is, the actions of the lowest common denominator of the public can affect a whole load of other people, not just them. No amount of education will stop a twentysomething woman from trying to get home in time for East Enders.

Is that what most of these closures are for?
Easy fix - Discontinue Eastenders

[FunkyNige]

How can you just 'close' a level crossing? Presumably we're talking about pedestrian crossings and not road crossings, but if you just put a fence up to stop people walking over won't they have to walk for ages to get over the line?

[ReallyReallyGood]

How much education do you need?

Don't walk in front of a train because you will probably die.

[Shaman]

It's stupid people using the crossings incorrectly.

In most cases, better signage/education/improvements won't make a difference as most people involved don't listen.

Sadly as we can't say "oh well another Darwin Adward Candidate." The easiest option is to shut them (either completely or with a new footbridge).

Having said that, some do really want shutting!

[Podie]

FunkyNige said:

How can you just 'close' a level crossing? Presumably we're talking about pedestrian crossings and not road crossings, but if you just put a fence up to stop people walking over won't they have to walk for ages to get over the line?

Railways have generally been there longer tham the roads... and NWR have to maintain them.

[saaby93]

Podie said:

FunkyNige said:

How can you just 'close' a level crossing? Presumably we're talking about pedestrian crossings and not road crossings, but if you just put a fence up to stop people walking over won't they have to walk for ages to get over the line?

Railways have generally been there longer tham the roads... and NWR have to maintain them.

No Roads ( and paths ) have often been around for thousands of years. The railway came much later hence crossings.
If you just put up a fence and they still want to cross, some will hop over it (and usually avoid being squashed)

[Podie]

saaby93 said:

Podie said:

FunkyNige said:

How can you just 'close' a level crossing? Presumably we're talking about pedestrian crossings and not road crossings, but if you just put a fence up to stop people walking over won't they have to walk for ages to get over the line?

Railways have generally been there longer tham the roads... and NWR have to maintain them.

No Roads ( and paths ) have often been around for thousands of years. The railway came much later hence crossings.
If you just put up a fence and they still want to cross, some will hop over it (and usually avoid being squashed)

How the fk did I transpose roads and railways?

[Rick101]

NWR usually build alternative access like an overbridge, at quite a considerable cost.

[saaby93]

New video at beginning of the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24754358
Anyone know how to link to it directly?
They're using radar to detect vehicles approaching so if the crossing's not clear they hold the train at a signal.
They dont seem to have radar to say when theres really a train coming
So...
Radar sets signal to clear, train wakes up. Car driver gets fed up waiting and goes through crossing
Train gets them
It's a full barrier rather than half barrier so maybe not

[Shaman]

Not watched the video but sounds like an Obstacle Detection crossing which is the new type of crossing for upgrades.

Basically it uses an array of Lidar and Radar to detect obstacles on the crossing when the lower sequence is initiated and approaching the crossing whilst its under operation.

Any obstacles detected (Cars/Badgers/Mrs. Miggins' prize poodle) stop the lower sequence and automatically raise to allow the obstacle to clear the crossing. If the obstacle is immobile then someone attends to sort the problem out.

Once the barriers are down and the Lidar/Radar array has not detected anything then the crossing sends the interlocking a signal which will allow the appropiate protecting signal to clear up a proceed aspect.

If for any reason (kids playing/drunks lifting the barriers) then detection circuits are broken and the protecting signals replaced to danger. The crossing then stops lowered and locked for 2-4 minutes (dependant upon linespeed).

An addition is the use of ANPR cameras to catch anyone trying to dodge to barriers.

saaby93 said:

New video at beginning of the link
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24754358
Anyone know how to link to it directly?
They're using radar to detect vehicles approaching so if the crossing's not clear they hold the train at a signal.
They dont seem to have radar to say when theres really a train coming
So...
Radar sets signal to clear, train wakes up. Car driver gets fed up waiting and goes through crossing
Train gets them
It's a full barrier rather than half barrier so maybe not

[Late Turn]

saaby93 said:

They're using radar to detect vehicles approaching so if the crossing's not clear they hold the train at a signal.
They dont seem to have radar to say when theres really a train coming
So...
Radar sets signal to clear, train wakes up. Car driver gets fed up waiting and goes through crossing
Train gets them
It's a full barrier rather than half barrier so maybe not

Obstacle detection is only used at full barrier crossings anyway - it'd serve little purpose at an AHB, as it'd be too late to stop the train in most cases (because the barriers are down for such a short time - as everyone seems to be demanding).

Shaman said:

Not watched the video but sounds like an Obstacle Detection crossing which is the new type of crossing for upgrades.

Basically it uses an array of Lidar and Radar to detect obstacles on the crossing when the lower sequence is initiated and approaching the crossing whilst its under operation.

Any obstacles detected (Cars/Badgers/Mrs. Miggins' prize poodle) stop the lower sequence and automatically raise to allow the obstacle to clear the crossing. If the obstacle is immobile then someone attends to sort the problem out.

Once the barriers are down and the Lidar/Radar array has not detected anything then the crossing sends the interlocking a signal which will allow the appropiate protecting signal to clear up a proceed aspect.

If for any reason (kids playing/drunks lifting the barriers) then detection circuits are broken and the protecting signals replaced to danger. The crossing then stops lowered and locked for 2-4 minutes (dependant upon linespeed).

An addition is the use of ANPR cameras to catch anyone trying to dodge to barriers.

It is indeed an OD crossing. I don't know the exact details of their operation, but my understanding is that they don't 'sweep' the crossing continuously, but rather only after each pair of barriers has descended (and possibly before the leading barriers descend?). The 'crossing clear' decision, once the barriers are down, is the crucial one that allows the protecting signals to clear. The radar won't subsequently intervene to replace signals to danger (but the detection on the barriers will, if they're damaged or forced to raise - when approach locking will come into play to hold the barriers down until the approaching train is proved either at a stand or passed clear of the crossing). Clever stuff, but not sure how it improves safety at an existing full barrier crossing...!

[saaby93]

Late Turn said:

It is indeed an OD crossing. I don't know the exact details of their operation, but my understanding is that they don't 'sweep' the crossing continuously, but rather only after each pair of barriers has descended (and possibly before the leading barriers descend?). The 'crossing clear' decision, once the barriers are down, is the crucial one that allows the protecting signals to clear. The radar won't subsequently intervene to replace signals to danger (but the detection on the barriers will, if they're damaged or forced to raise - when approach locking will come into play to hold the barriers down until the approaching train is proved either at a stand or passed clear of the crossing). Clever stuff, but not sure how it improves safety at an existing full barrier crossing...!

As usual its all in the detail
These 500 crossings could be footpaths, farm crosssings, lights only crossings, half barriers but unlikely to be full barriers like the ones in the link?

[alangla]

Interestingly, NR wanted to close the AHB crossing at Kirknewton, near Livingston & replace with an underpass. The locals didn't like it.
http://www.globalrailnews.com/2011/09/07/new-solut...
Instead they got full barriers with obstacle detection
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Relea...
that could "cause chaos"
http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/rail-crossi...
and "cost lives".... (stories published before the crossing was installed)
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/...
There really is no way for NR to win.