Audi, why are they so flat footed in the chassis dept ?

[Slippydiff]

Ok, now I've got your attention . . . . .

Over the past twelve months I'd driven several hot (warmish ?) Audi's. Those being an S3 (2009) RS4 2007 (V8 NA) and two TTRS's (a 2013 and a 2011)
All have cracking engines, all also have what can only be described as hopeless, flat footed, dull, unengaging handling along with steering lacking in feel/feedback/tactility.

I'm a BMW and Porsche man, and intrigued how Audi manage to get it so "wrong" compared with their German compatriots ?

The RS4 is at an obvious disadvantage with its large, heavy V8 placed between the headlamps. Make no mistake, with a decent exhaust, that V8 is indeed an awesome engine. But the handling compared with something like an E46 CSL is utterly "uninspiring".

The S3, with it's DSG 'box was a superb weapon for traversing A & B roads quickly, but again its chassis was oh so dull and lacking in both tactility or engagement.

The TTRS ? What an engine, again paired with a DSG 'box in both the examples I drove. The first example (a 2013 dealer demo with 3k miles) was faaaaast, but unless you drove it at massive speed, it felt very efficient (not a bad thing) but the steering was numb and lacking any real kind of feel or feedback.

The second example I drove a couple of weeks ago (a 2011 car) had done a mere 19K miles. It too felt totally lacking in the steering feel department. Add in dampers that felt like they weren't and springs which felt like they were struggling to support the car, and I walked away totally unimpressed.

I jumped back into my 2007 BMW 335D Sport (now on 128K miles) and marvelled at the weighty, feelsome steering. This in direct contrast to the TTRS's steering, which I turned whilst waiting at some traffic lights, only to find it appeared to have no weighting (I could turn the wheel with my little finger such was the lack of weight on centre and either side) Try doing the same in the 335D and you'll need several fingers and a lot more heft . . . .


The TTRS runs a "square" wheel/tyre setup (9" wide wheels and 255 width tyres both front and rear. Whilst I appreciate the four wheel drive system fitted to the RS is Haldex based (and thus not a true full time four wheel drive system) surely tyres that size (or the Audi's geometry ?) would only contribute to the numb/dull, lifeless steering feel ?

I should say that my point of reference is the BMW 1 M coupe, a car praised in just about every press review written. I've owned two of them and loved every second spent behind the wheel.

The 1M coupe runs 245 section front tyres, along with a steering rack some 3/4 turn quicker than the Audis. The springs and damper rates felt so much better judged than the frankly hopeless setups on the Audis.

Any chassis engineers out there that can explain why Audi are so hopeless at engineering feelsome steering/chassis setups ? Or indeed what it is specifically that makes their chassis feel so flatfooted and their steering so numb (scrub radius etc) ?

Thanks in advance.

[100SRV]

;-)
perhaps the default setup is so all their cars can complete the 24 heures du mans?

[MiseryStreak]

It's deliberate. They can do it when they try, B7 RS4 and R8. I think the majority of buyers prefer a bit of safe understeer. No excuse for the dead steering though, in my experience even people who don't give a damn about driving notice when the steering is good.

[Escort3500]

Can't say I find the steering on my B7 RS4 lacking in feel or feedback. The handling is phenomenal and far more sure-footed and composed, especially in poor conditions, than the E46 M3 I was contemplating before I opted for the Audi (and I'm a big BMW fan having had 3). Another factor was pure practicality; BMW didn't make an M3 estate/Touring version, and there are very few estates to rival the RS4.

[Kozy]

I don't profess to be an expert, but it seems they do have a tendancy to hand their engines out a long way past the front axle centerline, which is bound to screw up... something...

[Nick1point9]

They aren't hopeless, they are designing to the brief they are given.

If you want to feel a badly engineered chassis try driving a kia sportage - it's too softly sprung and too stiffly damped, so manages to be both wallowy and crashy. After that you'll never complain about an understeery audi.

[Slippydiff]

Nick1point9 said:

They aren't hopeless, they are designing to the brief they are given.

So basically speaking, you're saying they engineer them to be as dull and inspiring as possible (from a handling perspective). Makes sense

[otolith]

They know their market.

[mrmr96]

People who like RWD cars will buy and drive RWD cars. People who don't, won't.
Also, people who understand cars will understand why a FWD or 4WD car will handle differently from the RWD cars they've driven.

[richwig83]

Slow steering rack is one of my hates/frustrations with all VAG cars.

[Nick1point9]

Slippydiff said:

Nick1point9 said:

They aren't hopeless, they are designing to the brief they are given.

So basically speaking, you're saying they engineer them to be as dull and inspiring as possible (from a handling perspective). Makes sense

Yes. And judging by their sales figures, it works a treat.

[The Wookie]

Different vehicle dynamics targets set as a result of different marketing strategies.

Unfortunately there is a tendency to follow those targets slavishly to the detriment of ultimate subjective performance IMHO. It's basically how small teams of dynamics engineers with a bit of freedom tend to produce better results than specification and tuning by committee.

For example, you say you like the heavier feel of the BMW weighting, personally having driven a few I'd probably consider the parking efforts to be excessive. Probably mainly down to BMW's tendency to use a lot of Castor angle to provide information feedback for the whole 'ultimate driving machine' goal.

Audi are also aimed squarely at their market, light pedals and steering for ease of use and masses of NVH work to improve isolation and give the feel of modernity, overly firm suspension to suit the level of perceived 'sportiness', the extent of which is defined by the trim spec.