Nissan Bladeglider (aka production road going deltawing)
Discussion
Just came across this on Wired... and been having an look around other sites.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/11/nissan-bladeg...
Cue discussion on understeer, centre of gravity, torque vectoring, how EVs are rubbish etc.
I love the idea (I'd love to build an electric SDR V-Storm) but am not convinced of the design of this. The ZEOD makes me go oooh... saw in the flash at Le Mans last year, but this just looks a bit "wrong" from the front side view just above the wheels. Though all the other angles I think it looks awesome. I can imagine every kid under the age of 15 will be sticking posters on their bedroom walls like I did with the Countache. Maybe it's the two tone paint not working.
My guess it will be powered by the 1.6 petrol acting as a generator with say an extra 200+ hp from twin electric powered wheel motors.
Though with the design ethos being about weight saving / drag reduction etc... it would have to be a coupe. There's a couple of shots of a coupe version if you google the pics. I think a convertible is just to make it easier to take pics of the jet fighter interior at the motor show.
For a quick run down on how the delta wing works... the weight is mostly over the rear, and it uses active torque vectoring so the narrow front end doesn't have the draw back you'd expect... think if you are turning right the left wheel will push harder than the right wheel. The front wheels are there to guide the nose, and stop it scraping on the ground. Note to self... must get a book on mechanical mathmatics so I can explain it properly!
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/11/nissan-bladeg...
Cue discussion on understeer, centre of gravity, torque vectoring, how EVs are rubbish etc.
I love the idea (I'd love to build an electric SDR V-Storm) but am not convinced of the design of this. The ZEOD makes me go oooh... saw in the flash at Le Mans last year, but this just looks a bit "wrong" from the front side view just above the wheels. Though all the other angles I think it looks awesome. I can imagine every kid under the age of 15 will be sticking posters on their bedroom walls like I did with the Countache. Maybe it's the two tone paint not working.
My guess it will be powered by the 1.6 petrol acting as a generator with say an extra 200+ hp from twin electric powered wheel motors.
Though with the design ethos being about weight saving / drag reduction etc... it would have to be a coupe. There's a couple of shots of a coupe version if you google the pics. I think a convertible is just to make it easier to take pics of the jet fighter interior at the motor show.
For a quick run down on how the delta wing works... the weight is mostly over the rear, and it uses active torque vectoring so the narrow front end doesn't have the draw back you'd expect... think if you are turning right the left wheel will push harder than the right wheel. The front wheels are there to guide the nose, and stop it scraping on the ground. Note to self... must get a book on mechanical mathmatics so I can explain it properly!
Ok, I'm wrong already. It's lithium batteries - no ICE. There's an official video. Starting to like it.. Though I own a Juke and I like Marmite. (I wonder if there's a correlation?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...
There's notes if you click the (i) button.
Two things which won't make it to production... the swinging drivers seat and the floating square steering wheel. It may stay square but it won't float up up when you want to get out. At least they don't have to worry about left hand/right hand drive versions.
I've realise why it's not a nice a shape as the ZEOD... it's a lot higher as even enthusiastic drivers want to be a car a bit taller than 0.5m.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedd...
There's notes if you click the (i) button.
Two things which won't make it to production... the swinging drivers seat and the floating square steering wheel. It may stay square but it won't float up up when you want to get out. At least they don't have to worry about left hand/right hand drive versions.
I've realise why it's not a nice a shape as the ZEOD... it's a lot higher as even enthusiastic drivers want to be a car a bit taller than 0.5m.
Kawasicki said:
Looks poor for aero efficiency. Any drag figures?
No - but think the idea is to get low drag if they are using the same design principle as the Deltawing. The narrow nose, and lack of spoiler, is intended to reduce drag. Instead they have designed the underside to create negative pressure by using ground effects. Looking at the back - there's definitely a big splitter there, combined with the fact most of the weight is over the rear axle - where the negative lift is centered it should provide an interesting experience, if nothing like you are used to. Though this is assuming you are taking it round a track of course!TransverseTight said:
Kawasicki said:
Looks poor for aero efficiency. Any drag figures?
No - but think the idea is to get low drag if they are using the same design principle as the Deltawing. The narrow nose, and lack of spoiler, is intended to reduce drag. Instead they have designed the underside to create negative pressure by using ground effects. Looking at the back - there's definitely a big splitter there, combined with the fact most of the weight is over the rear axle - where the negative lift is centered it should provide an interesting experience, if nothing like you are used to. Though this is assuming you are taking it round a track of course!In other words this vehicle seems to oppose all the basic rules of aero. Basically it looks like it will have average frontal area and a less than ideal shape. That's why I'm interested in the drag figures.
Probably best you watch the video of harris driving the original race version to try and understand why everything you think you understand about car design is probably wrong.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&...
The key thing I picked up from the interview with the designer (second half of the video) is that because the weight is rear biased, braking is pretty much life throwing a parachute out the back of the car. Rather than having a front brake bias where the car tries to pivot around the outside wheel, in this car the braking forces at the front wheels are transferred back through the centre of gravity so it actually handles more neutrally. This means the tyres can be skinnier as they aren't trying to stop the car sliding at the front. Don't ask me for the equations though.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&...
The key thing I picked up from the interview with the designer (second half of the video) is that because the weight is rear biased, braking is pretty much life throwing a parachute out the back of the car. Rather than having a front brake bias where the car tries to pivot around the outside wheel, in this car the braking forces at the front wheels are transferred back through the centre of gravity so it actually handles more neutrally. This means the tyres can be skinnier as they aren't trying to stop the car sliding at the front. Don't ask me for the equations though.
TransverseTight said:
Probably best you watch the video of harris driving the original race version to try and understand why everything you think you understand about car design is probably wrong.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&...
The key thing I picked up from the interview with the designer (second half of the video) is that because the weight is rear biased, braking is pretty much life throwing a parachute out the back of the car. Rather than having a front brake bias where the car tries to pivot around the outside wheel, in this car the braking forces at the front wheels are transferred back through the centre of gravity so it actually handles more neutrally. This means the tyres can be skinnier as they aren't trying to stop the car sliding at the front. Don't ask me for the equations though.
Even on rear biased cars the front brakes and tyres do most of the braking work. A parachute is a completely different mechanism.http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?f=23&...
The key thing I picked up from the interview with the designer (second half of the video) is that because the weight is rear biased, braking is pretty much life throwing a parachute out the back of the car. Rather than having a front brake bias where the car tries to pivot around the outside wheel, in this car the braking forces at the front wheels are transferred back through the centre of gravity so it actually handles more neutrally. This means the tyres can be skinnier as they aren't trying to stop the car sliding at the front. Don't ask me for the equations though.
As for the front brake effort being more in line with the centre of gravity...is understeer during braking a very common and restrictive issue for racing cars with normal layout? Not in my experience.
Do you think most race engineers would not have seen by now that reducing the front track gives a competitive advantage. Are they all suffering from false groupthink?
Kawasicki said:
Even on rear biased cars the front brakes and tyres do most of the braking work. A parachute is a completely different mechanism.
As for the front brake effort being more in line with the centre of gravity...is understeer during braking a very common and restrictive issue for racing cars with normal layout? Not in my experience.
Do you think most race engineers would not have seen by now that reducing the front track gives a competitive advantage. Are they all suffering from false groupthink?
The whole idea of the deltawing project was to start with a blank sheet of paper and design a race car not constrained by any current rules.As for the front brake effort being more in line with the centre of gravity...is understeer during braking a very common and restrictive issue for racing cars with normal layout? Not in my experience.
Do you think most race engineers would not have seen by now that reducing the front track gives a competitive advantage. Are they all suffering from false groupthink?
Have you watched the video? These aren't my ideas, I'm just repeating what the designer states. I had no idea for example that having wheels outside the centre of gravity means the car tries to piroutte when under heavy braking. The reason it doesn't is because they have big fat slick tyres on which you don't need, if the wheels are closer to the centre line and most of the weight is at the rear of the car.
I wouldn't say its false group think, but that with current production car design which are then converted to GT race cars, or say F1 or LMP cars, there are rules which prevent them straying from the current shape ie a wheel at each corner.
Will be interesting to see how the production / prototype car drives. Though I do think it will be a hard sell as most people take some convincing to accept something new like this. Someone like me - who can be bothered to get past the initial "it won't work" into "how does it work" might think about buying, but even then would be worried about resale. Leasing though....
This may well grind to a halt - Panoz and DeltaWing are suing for theft of ideas. Looking at the history, Nissan came in to provide the powerplant, then pulled out, so they did have access to the design. Thing is, it could be one of those ideas that surfaces every once in a while that everybody has at once. Unfortunately in these somewhat litigious times, it usually means that whoever gets it out first sues everyone else.
ThunderGod said:
This may well grind to a halt - Panoz and DeltaWing are suing for theft of ideas. Looking at the history, Nissan came in to provide the powerplant, then pulled out, so they did have access to the design. Thing is, it could be one of those ideas that surfaces every once in a while that everybody has at once. Unfortunately in these somewhat litigious times, it usually means that whoever gets it out first sues everyone else.
I guess it will all depend on what contracts were signed - the originator of the Deltawing concept is now with Nissan rather than Panoz.Gassing Station | Motoring News | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff