What usable road/track car? £5k, RWD, great noise..
Discussion
Evening all,
Amongst other scheming, I've been considering getting a cheap E36 as a track toy. But now I start to wonder whether it might be better to get an all-in-one machine that can make a nice, usable commuter as well as being more than capable on the track.
To give you some idea of my thoughts, I was inspired by this carpool of a lovely but sadly out of budget 130i.
I'd love to think there's a car out there that I can use every day, like sitting in and don't get wallet-raped by, but that also makes a fantastic noise and goes just where I point it when the mood takes me. As a guide for focused vs usable, it'll do perhaps 3-4 track days a year as well as commuting 10kpa plus some longer (300+ mile) trips.
Needs: RWD, naturally aspirated and pretty quick, not too horrendous on fuel (25-"30"mpg is OK), handles properly, nice enough interior.
Wants: Reasonably modern (which to me is my '99 E46 328i or newer), respectable image, some practicality and rear seats would be a big help, and bonus points for cracking 200bhp/ton or being especially nice inside!
I'm hoping this one falls into a bit of a PH area of expertise, bargain performance that isn't overly compromised
so far I've come up with these:
And that's about as far as my thinking has taken me so far - what can you recommend (or advise against?!)?
Thanks in advance, look forward to hearing some new ideas!
Amongst other scheming, I've been considering getting a cheap E36 as a track toy. But now I start to wonder whether it might be better to get an all-in-one machine that can make a nice, usable commuter as well as being more than capable on the track.
To give you some idea of my thoughts, I was inspired by this carpool of a lovely but sadly out of budget 130i.
I'd love to think there's a car out there that I can use every day, like sitting in and don't get wallet-raped by, but that also makes a fantastic noise and goes just where I point it when the mood takes me. As a guide for focused vs usable, it'll do perhaps 3-4 track days a year as well as commuting 10kpa plus some longer (300+ mile) trips.
Needs: RWD, naturally aspirated and pretty quick, not too horrendous on fuel (25-"30"mpg is OK), handles properly, nice enough interior.
Wants: Reasonably modern (which to me is my '99 E46 328i or newer), respectable image, some practicality and rear seats would be a big help, and bonus points for cracking 200bhp/ton or being especially nice inside!
I'm hoping this one falls into a bit of a PH area of expertise, bargain performance that isn't overly compromised
so far I've come up with these:- BMW E36 M3 - Got some choice at this money, clearly an excellent track day option, but a little dated and a big step backwards from my current E46 in that respect.
- Porsche Boxster - Amazingly in budget. Would need to be 2.7 as a minimum, but some 3.2s in budget. Not sure how the interior quality or fuel economy are, but surely a good steer.
- Nissan 350Z - Stretching the budget and possibly not focused enough for track use, but I hear nice things about a sense of occasion with these.
- BMW Z4 3.0 - Also a bit out of budget, really, but looks a great all-rounder with properly nice cabin and just enough performance. Any cop down the twisties?
And that's about as far as my thinking has taken me so far - what can you recommend (or advise against?!)?
Thanks in advance, look forward to hearing some new ideas!
Had the same dilemma and the 350Z was my choice, not focused for track stuff, it has a LSD, carbon prop, low c of g, huge Brembo brakes, 300 bhp, bespoke sports suspension unique to the 350Z, proper hydraulic steering. Ok its relatively heavy but it isnt that much off the others, I think some of the reputation is from the heft of the controls rather than them being that much heavier than say a Z4.
E36 M3 is nice but potentially a money pit, good ones are going up, can be pretty rusty, probably the best track car of those listed but buy a good one !
Z4 nice, cant fault it, just didnt do it for me, no LSD.
Boxsters seem to be a lottery engine wise.
E36 M3 is nice but potentially a money pit, good ones are going up, can be pretty rusty, probably the best track car of those listed but buy a good one !
Z4 nice, cant fault it, just didnt do it for me, no LSD.
Boxsters seem to be a lottery engine wise.
Ah, thanks Jacko, big help. What sort of use does your Z see? The main worry I have is it being too soft/understeery when big questions are asked, but it's an impressive spec list and I do like the look of them. Seem to remember hearing they're pretty hard on fuel.
For the other three, inclined to agree on the M3 and think it might be better suited to dedicated track car status, but not ruling it out yet. Didn't know (but should have realised) the Z4 lacks an LSD, that's a pain, but noted that you didn't find any other issues. I quite like them. Spending <£5k on a Boxster set my alarm bells ringing too, feel a large slush fund might be needed but interested to hear whether it's worth it.
Just had a look and they're around the same money, hmmmmm, I like this.
I wanted to see if they could tick the aural excitement box too, and, well, it turns out they can. Something very different to the others but does sound brilliant!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCs9QCPKnwk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mnmwCbrrp8
Am I right in thinking the S2000 is a fairly robust thing? Concerned about low-range flatness, similar to the RX-8 in needing a proper caning to get any pace, and I've got used to fairly tractable engines. Then again, if it's a tough enough unit I might not mind giving it everything on a daily basis! Well on the list good shout.
For the other three, inclined to agree on the M3 and think it might be better suited to dedicated track car status, but not ruling it out yet. Didn't know (but should have realised) the Z4 lacks an LSD, that's a pain, but noted that you didn't find any other issues. I quite like them. Spending <£5k on a Boxster set my alarm bells ringing too, feel a large slush fund might be needed but interested to hear whether it's worth it.
Escy said:
S2000?
Ooooh. I thought of that earlier but then completely forgot, discounting it as impractical but now most of the other options don't have rear seats either so it's back in Just had a look and they're around the same money, hmmmmm, I like this.
I wanted to see if they could tick the aural excitement box too, and, well, it turns out they can. Something very different to the others but does sound brilliant!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCs9QCPKnwk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mnmwCbrrp8
Am I right in thinking the S2000 is a fairly robust thing? Concerned about low-range flatness, similar to the RX-8 in needing a proper caning to get any pace, and I've got used to fairly tractable engines. Then again, if it's a tough enough unit I might not mind giving it everything on a daily basis! Well on the list
good shout.I have no experience of them so don't really know what they are like. There is a good chance it would be the most rewarding engine on track. Like you say, the lack of torque may let it down on the road. It's light enough and the engine small enough to actually be able to return decent MPG compared to the others.
My brother has just bought a VX220 for around 5k. Don't know what it's like, not been in it yet.
My brother has just bought a VX220 for around 5k. Don't know what it's like, not been in it yet.
I find that I ask myself this question pretty much every other day...not that I have the money at the moment!
S2000 would definitely be on my list...a good mate had one a few years back and it was a really great all round car, very reliable and good looking and although most of the power is at the top end, that's part of the fun isn't it?
E36 M3 - I would have another one in a heartbeat. Absolutely loved mine, although it did have coilovers, BBS split rims and uprated brakes for added awesomeness! Was great as a daily and savage when needed. The only negative was the steering wasn't as direct as I think it should be on a car of that calibre.
Other cars I'd look at:-
Toyota MR2 turbo - I would imagine a good one of these would be fantastic. My n/a is great, steering is so direct, handles really well, very comfy on long journeys and devours B roads. Just not enough acceleration for my liking, hence a turbo would make up for that.
MX5 turbo - These are obviously not factory standard so would be a gamble, but a decent one could be great fun and very capable on road and track.
Then you've got a choice of Nissan 200sx variants...S13, S14, S14a would all be in budget. With a few choice mods these can look and go very well...got seats in the back too! You would have to sift through the many s
t ones out there though! I'd go for a 180sx which is S13 shape but with the 2 litre turbo similar to the later S14 models. Or if you wanted a more modern looking one, a nicely spec'd up S14a would be lovely!
S2000 would definitely be on my list...a good mate had one a few years back and it was a really great all round car, very reliable and good looking and although most of the power is at the top end, that's part of the fun isn't it?
E36 M3 - I would have another one in a heartbeat. Absolutely loved mine, although it did have coilovers, BBS split rims and uprated brakes for added awesomeness! Was great as a daily and savage when needed. The only negative was the steering wasn't as direct as I think it should be on a car of that calibre.
Other cars I'd look at:-
Toyota MR2 turbo - I would imagine a good one of these would be fantastic. My n/a is great, steering is so direct, handles really well, very comfy on long journeys and devours B roads. Just not enough acceleration for my liking, hence a turbo would make up for that.
MX5 turbo - These are obviously not factory standard so would be a gamble, but a decent one could be great fun and very capable on road and track.
Then you've got a choice of Nissan 200sx variants...S13, S14, S14a would all be in budget. With a few choice mods these can look and go very well...got seats in the back too! You would have to sift through the many s
t ones out there though! I'd go for a 180sx which is S13 shape but with the 2 litre turbo similar to the later S14 models. Or if you wanted a more modern looking one, a nicely spec'd up S14a would be lovely!I've got an e46 328 and used to have a 350z convertible, the BMW is possibly slightly better handling and is certainly a bit more economical, but the 350 I thought was great fun, I'd definitely have another. Feels more sporting and with minor mods like a blown back box and induction kit, sounded absolutely immense with the top down. The coupe is lighter, stiffer so quicker and just open the windows. Great grunt and handling for its size / weight.
Escy said:
I have no experience of them so don't really know what they are like. There is a good chance it would be the most rewarding engine on track. Like you say, the lack of torque may let it down on the road. It's light enough and the engine small enough to actually be able to return decent MPG compared to the others.
I'm thinking much the same. It looks like it would be fantastically addictive, and give real urge on track. And likely on the road. Even if it feels relatively underwhelming at lower speeds, it's still 150kg lighter than my E46 so can't be much worse off.Mid-engined stuff I finally draw the line at, I'm afraid, partly on grounds of practicality but also because I prefer a front-engined balance. I've suffered enough scope creep going from a four-seater to a 2+2 and now thinking two seats are acceptable
Paul, thanks for that, more good info. E36 M3 remains tempting despite its age, and I doubt the steering is less direct than my '46, so I wouldn't complain at it!
I have to say that with the greatest respect to 200SXs, Silvias and the like - always a place for those - not for me, not as a daily anyway. I also feel that something a bit more "big-car"-like than an MX-5 might be needed for the commute and longer trips. Both good ideas and would suit others really well, though!
TRD: You're in a great position to advise! I'm really interested that you reckon the E46 handles a shade better than the 350Z, that worries me a bit as while the BMW is excellent for a small saloon, well, if I was picking track cars.. Perhaps the Z would suit me as a weekender or fast road car but not for this? I'm a fairly demanding track driver and this is actually making up for not going racing next season so the car can't be underwhelming at the limit. I hear S2000s are very good fun when wrung out!
djglover said:
E90 330i?
Thought about it, but it seemed daft to go E46 -> E90 without a major performance step, especially as I thought it likely to be an even more diluted driving experience. Don't seem to really be in budget anyway! Maybe worth a punt in a few years unless I'm overlooking a hidden M-tax-free gem?Edited by McSam on Tuesday 12th November 22:35
Agree mate, probably wouldn't use as a track car, too big and heavy, was a superb Road car which is a what I used it as. My 350z had oversized wheels and possibly (not sure about this) lowered suspension, and was a convertible. I think a coupe with the right wheels might be better still, though despite those things the 350z I had was a very good handler for what it was.
Fair play - perhaps I can knock the 350Z off the list, then, which is maybe a good thing as I would probably have ended up with a ratty one at my budget.
I think a mk1/2 MX-5 would be too small and not really comparable to the other options so far, fun as a silly turbo one might be, and I'm not sure why I feel so MR2-averse. Maybe I'll look at these in more detail, but like I mentioned above I do like a good front-engined car.
Keeping my eye on S2000s
I wonder what realistic fuel economy one might expect, on the one hand it's a small engine, on the other it's a high-compression, highly-strung one, could go either way. Don't remember hearing they're especially bad though!
I wonder if there's anything else I'm missing. Keeping my eyes peeled as I drive around in case anything jumps out as a candidate
I think a mk1/2 MX-5 would be too small and not really comparable to the other options so far, fun as a silly turbo one might be, and I'm not sure why I feel so MR2-averse. Maybe I'll look at these in more detail, but like I mentioned above I do like a good front-engined car.
Keeping my eye on S2000s
I wonder what realistic fuel economy one might expect, on the one hand it's a small engine, on the other it's a high-compression, highly-strung one, could go either way. Don't remember hearing they're especially bad though!I wonder if there's anything else I'm missing. Keeping my eyes peeled as I drive around in case anything jumps out as a candidate
A C5 RS6 (V8) is a whole other world of barge, purchase price and gearbox/turbo eating potential than I have in mind! Contemplating that at my budget would be mental. Unfortunately Monaros look out of budget too, as well as being perhaps too muscle-car for the level of track use? Would be great fun though!
ZT260, similar to Monaro - heavy, vague, and too expensive (buy and fuel) despite doubtless being a hilarious daily
Been in an NA mk2 MR2, and I agree, sounds great and it's exciting for it, even if not that quick. I don't know if I'd get on with it as a daily, perhaps too old and basic, but I know an owner so will have more of a chat with him - it keeps coming up so must be worth thinking about!
ZT260, similar to Monaro - heavy, vague, and too expensive (buy and fuel) despite doubtless being a hilarious daily
orangesrule said:
I wouldnt write off the 350z, at all out of the box they are very capable, alot of them came with posh 2 way lsd's. which imo would be a large consideration for a track weapon.
Not forgotten - especially as Z4s apparently don't have LSDs, but S2000s thankfully do. I'll see what further research can tell me about limit handling of the 350Z, but I do remember contemporary reviews making it out as more of a GT biased car than anyone's track tool. I do like them, though.Been in an NA mk2 MR2, and I agree, sounds great and it's exciting for it, even if not that quick. I don't know if I'd get on with it as a daily, perhaps too old and basic, but I know an owner so will have more of a chat with him - it keeps coming up so must be worth thinking about!
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