BMW E28 M535i buying tips
Discussion
Hi Benjj,
First up,bodywork,they rust in most of the usual areas,sills,jacking points,rear suspension mounting points,lower inner wings (under battery)front wings,front panel and a lot have been bumped and repaired,check for panel gaps (especially at the rear.....)etc
Engine: Very prone to camshaft wear,even on supposedly low milers,they have a spray bar system similar to the Pinto which clogs up,once the cam starts to wear it's scrap,good news is it can be done without removing the head.
Heads are prone to cracking under the cam carrier from memory,and listen for grumbly bottom end bearings and the usual smoke on start up.
Gearbox: Bearings,listen for grumble that sounds like a clutch release bearing and goes away when you put your foot on the clutch,that indicates knackered first motion shaft bearing if you are lucky,if not then full gearbox rebuild or replacement.
Not starting from hot is ECU problem with the main power transistor....
Diff: Whines are common,if LSD is still there check it works with no nasty knocks and clonks.
Suspension Front: Shaking steering wheel under braking front arm bushes are knackered,or have been replaced with cheapo aftermarket chinese copies.
Suspension Rear: Vertical subframe bushes are usually soggy with age and can knock under acceleration/deceleration.
Other than that just the usual checks that you would be looking for on any 30 year old motor
Anything else I can help with drop me a pm
First up,bodywork,they rust in most of the usual areas,sills,jacking points,rear suspension mounting points,lower inner wings (under battery)front wings,front panel and a lot have been bumped and repaired,check for panel gaps (especially at the rear.....)etc
Engine: Very prone to camshaft wear,even on supposedly low milers,they have a spray bar system similar to the Pinto which clogs up,once the cam starts to wear it's scrap,good news is it can be done without removing the head.
Heads are prone to cracking under the cam carrier from memory,and listen for grumbly bottom end bearings and the usual smoke on start up.
Gearbox: Bearings,listen for grumble that sounds like a clutch release bearing and goes away when you put your foot on the clutch,that indicates knackered first motion shaft bearing if you are lucky,if not then full gearbox rebuild or replacement.
Not starting from hot is ECU problem with the main power transistor....
Diff: Whines are common,if LSD is still there check it works with no nasty knocks and clonks.
Suspension Front: Shaking steering wheel under braking front arm bushes are knackered,or have been replaced with cheapo aftermarket chinese copies.
Suspension Rear: Vertical subframe bushes are usually soggy with age and can knock under acceleration/deceleration.
Other than that just the usual checks that you would be looking for on any 30 year old motor
Anything else I can help with drop me a pm
That is superb, thanks very much.
This is one of the cars I'm considering: http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C342574
Not a huge amount to go on (and through a dealer which I'm not delighted about).
I'd plan to have it as a weekend car, essentially taking the place at the end of each week of my E39 530i Sport daily barge.
Really keen on these now the more I read (cam clatter excluded!)
This is one of the cars I'm considering: http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C342574
Not a huge amount to go on (and through a dealer which I'm not delighted about).
I'd plan to have it as a weekend car, essentially taking the place at the end of each week of my E39 530i Sport daily barge.
Really keen on these now the more I read (cam clatter excluded!)
benjj said:
That is superb, thanks very much.
This is one of the cars I'm considering: http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C342574
Not a huge amount to go on (and through a dealer which I'm not delighted about).
I'd plan to have it as a weekend car, essentially taking the place at the end of each week of my E39 530i Sport daily barge.
Really keen on these now the more I read (cam clatter excluded!)
That is all kinds of awesome. This is one of the cars I'm considering: http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C342574
Not a huge amount to go on (and through a dealer which I'm not delighted about).
I'd plan to have it as a weekend car, essentially taking the place at the end of each week of my E39 530i Sport daily barge.
Really keen on these now the more I read (cam clatter excluded!)
One or two more areas to check for rust:
Around the front suspension turrents, especially inside the arch, and right up above the wheel. In fact, the inner wings seem to rust in multiple and random areas.
Chassis rails around the front anti-roll bar mountings.
Apparently the bulkhead below the windscreen can be a problem.
Driver and front passenger side footwells, and up under the dash/behind the wheel arch area.
I'm sure there's more, but offhand I can't remember without wandering outside to the garage where my E28 is sat, full of bloody holes
.
I'm currently attempting to cut the rot out and let in new steel, but it's a difficult task, the E28's bodywork is quite thin and blows through really easily, and motivation has never been a strong point of mine.
Around the front suspension turrents, especially inside the arch, and right up above the wheel. In fact, the inner wings seem to rust in multiple and random areas.
Chassis rails around the front anti-roll bar mountings.
Apparently the bulkhead below the windscreen can be a problem.
Driver and front passenger side footwells, and up under the dash/behind the wheel arch area.
I'm sure there's more, but offhand I can't remember without wandering outside to the garage where my E28 is sat, full of bloody holes
. I'm currently attempting to cut the rot out and let in new steel, but it's a difficult task, the E28's bodywork is quite thin and blows through really easily, and motivation has never been a strong point of mine.
Thanks SSM, all noted!
I'm now just hovering between E38 M535i and M5. The true M car commands pretty chunky cash though and so few of them about.
I think for my needs a 535 would be a winner though. I'm renting a place in a well ventilated underground garage 2 minutes walk from work. I have an idea of keeping an E28 there during the week and grabbing it every Friday for the weekend
I'm now just hovering between E38 M535i and M5. The true M car commands pretty chunky cash though and so few of them about.
I think for my needs a 535 would be a winner though. I'm renting a place in a well ventilated underground garage 2 minutes walk from work. I have an idea of keeping an E28 there during the week and grabbing it every Friday for the weekend
That wants to be up in the air on a ramp for inspection ideally,bodykits hide allsorts of nastyness,although it does look like it has M5 wheels (worth a fortune now if they are genuine)
You'll probably find if it has cam wear it'll be the back lobes,but take the oil cap off and have a look anyway (Engine off!!)
And I forgot to mention in my original post,get your fingers up into those rear arch edges(especially where they join the sills) to check for corrosion.
Once you have taken the plunge,have it rust proofed to within an inch of it's life.
I had a 535i SE last year,Diamondschartz with Cardinal red leather,that too was a manual,bloody wonderful!! 218 REAL horses,it must have felt like a starship back in the 80's (it was still fast by today's standards)
I really lived the dream with that car,as I'd wanted one since the early 80's when I first rode in my Dad's Bosses 525...... That is one car I really miss owning....
You'll probably find if it has cam wear it'll be the back lobes,but take the oil cap off and have a look anyway (Engine off!!)
And I forgot to mention in my original post,get your fingers up into those rear arch edges(especially where they join the sills) to check for corrosion.
Once you have taken the plunge,have it rust proofed to within an inch of it's life.
I had a 535i SE last year,Diamondschartz with Cardinal red leather,that too was a manual,bloody wonderful!! 218 REAL horses,it must have felt like a starship back in the 80's (it was still fast by today's standards)
I really lived the dream with that car,as I'd wanted one since the early 80's when I first rode in my Dad's Bosses 525...... That is one car I really miss owning....
Some great advice already. I own an M5, albeit a US spec one, but bear in mind the costs of fixing an M88/3 can be huge and those engines need frequent timing chain replacements.
For daily use I'd rather have a 535i, the B34s are rather common over here and they are capable of huge mileages, 300K+ is typical. The oil sprayer bar isn't an issue if its checked regularly, these cars call for valve lash adjustment every 15k miles.
They like 20W50, you can go to 15W40 in the winter. M30s like frequent oil changes and also like to use a little oil.
I'd also watch for rot in the spare tire well, heck, almost anywhere. My M5 is going at the jacking points, around the rear license plate lamps, and also at the rear bumper supports although those are unique to US/Canadian cars.
For daily use I'd rather have a 535i, the B34s are rather common over here and they are capable of huge mileages, 300K+ is typical. The oil sprayer bar isn't an issue if its checked regularly, these cars call for valve lash adjustment every 15k miles.
They like 20W50, you can go to 15W40 in the winter. M30s like frequent oil changes and also like to use a little oil.
I'd also watch for rot in the spare tire well, heck, almost anywhere. My M5 is going at the jacking points, around the rear license plate lamps, and also at the rear bumper supports although those are unique to US/Canadian cars.
benjj said:
This is one of the cars I'm considering: http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C342574
That car has been up for sale for a very long time on that site at that price. Judging by the date the ad was listed it has been re advertised. I was thinking about going to look at it last year.Sincere thanks for all these tips chaps. I've got a lead on 3 interesting cars now (all E28s).
Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
olly22n said:
benjj said:
Sincere thanks for all these tips chaps. I've got a lead on 3 interesting cars now (all E28s).
Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
That has to be Tony? Say hi from me!Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
benjj said:
olly22n said:
benjj said:
Sincere thanks for all these tips chaps. I've got a lead on 3 interesting cars now (all E28s).
Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
That has to be Tony? Say hi from me!Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
benjj said:
Sincere thanks for all these tips chaps. I've got a lead on 3 interesting cars now (all E28s).
Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
I have a couple of decades worth of experience with E12s, E28s and even an E12/8 528i!Olly, yes would potentially be interested in the E12 also. In fact I'm speaking to a nice chap in the North East who has one for sale.
Really got the bug for these now, won't be long until there is one in the garage! The decision between E28 and E12 is both interesting and difficult. The stats of each car are almost identical but the E28 seems easier to tune but the older cars have a slightly more classic appeal.
Structurally the main bodyshell is very similar, and suffers all the same problems, floor corners, inner wing-to-body, strut tops etc. On the road the E12 and E28 M535i variants are very different to each other. The 12 is much more of a drivers car, feels more alert, and quicker. Part of that is the early engine, which has a larger bore and is simply more revvy and more interested than the 3430cc later unit. The E12's diff is a better, more expensive unit, much in demand by rally boys in Europe. An E12 will do wonderful four wheel drifts on its 14" rims, whereas an E28 will scare you rigid in the wet on standard metric TRXs. The e12 has an awful twin remote servo setup that normally requires a sort out. A little tweaking on an E28 will bring it to life, with decent rims etc. Big brakes are cheap from later 5/7/8 series. M88 engine is fearsome on fuel, would rather have a tweaked 12 valve on bodies. I've had two E12 M535is, two E28 M535is, and currently have a 535iSE (oddly, M535i on the V5!)which is a two seat road legal track car that is just being finished off after a long lay-off, last use was the Pomeroy Trophy in 2009!
They really are awesome things, but buy carefully, and ask questions. Always happy to repair/restore/prep one
Flatinfourth said:
I have a couple of decades worth of experience with E12s, E28s and even an E12/8 528i!
Structurally the main bodyshell is very similar, and suffers all the same problems, floor corners, inner wing-to-body, strut tops etc. On the road the E12 and E28 M535i variants are very different to each other. The 12 is much more of a drivers car, feels more alert, and quicker. Part of that is the early engine, which has a larger bore and is simply more revvy and more interested than the 3430cc later unit. The E12's diff is a better, more expensive unit, much in demand by rally boys in Europe. An E12 will do wonderful four wheel drifts on its 14" rims, whereas an E28 will scare you rigid in the wet on standard metric TRXs. The e12 has an awful twin remote servo setup that normally requires a sort out. A little tweaking on an E28 will bring it to life, with decent rims etc. Big brakes are cheap from later 5/7/8 series. M88 engine is fearsome on fuel, would rather have a tweaked 12 valve on bodies. I've had two E12 M535is, two E28 M535is, and currently have a 535iSE (oddly, M535i on the V5!)which is a two seat road legal track car that is just being finished off after a long lay-off, last use was the Pomeroy Trophy in 2009!
They really are awesome things, but buy carefully, and ask questions. Always happy to repair/restore/prep one
Thanks Peter, that's really very helpful.Structurally the main bodyshell is very similar, and suffers all the same problems, floor corners, inner wing-to-body, strut tops etc. On the road the E12 and E28 M535i variants are very different to each other. The 12 is much more of a drivers car, feels more alert, and quicker. Part of that is the early engine, which has a larger bore and is simply more revvy and more interested than the 3430cc later unit. The E12's diff is a better, more expensive unit, much in demand by rally boys in Europe. An E12 will do wonderful four wheel drifts on its 14" rims, whereas an E28 will scare you rigid in the wet on standard metric TRXs. The e12 has an awful twin remote servo setup that normally requires a sort out. A little tweaking on an E28 will bring it to life, with decent rims etc. Big brakes are cheap from later 5/7/8 series. M88 engine is fearsome on fuel, would rather have a tweaked 12 valve on bodies. I've had two E12 M535is, two E28 M535is, and currently have a 535iSE (oddly, M535i on the V5!)which is a two seat road legal track car that is just being finished off after a long lay-off, last use was the Pomeroy Trophy in 2009!
They really are awesome things, but buy carefully, and ask questions. Always happy to repair/restore/prep one
As is often the case with these things it has gone down a slightly different route than expected and the E12 is now looking by far the most likely and desirable option. The good ones are well over my budget though so a purchase may require a bit of creative accounting
I've read a lot today about the 'feel' of the E12 over the E28 and it certainly does sound right up my strasse. My very early 944 is super light weight and tight as a drum as it is used for historic rallying and the agility of the E12 sounds like something I want/need.
Also, and I know that this is a bit of a cop out, but I can't face a car that needs stuff doing to it other than regular maintenance and replacement of consumables as and when required. I know I'll have to pay for this but after a bare shell restoration of this
and the rally prepping of this
I just want a car to drive, enjoy, top up the oil and leave two black stripes everywhere
sprocketman01 said:
Hi Benjj,
First up,bodywork,they rust in most of the usual areas,sills,jacking points,rear suspension mounting points,lower inner wings (under battery)front wings,front panel and a lot have been bumped and repaired,check for panel gaps (especially at the rear.....)etc
Engine: Very prone to camshaft wear,even on supposedly low milers,they have a spray bar system similar to the Pinto which clogs up,once the cam starts to wear it's scrap,good news is it can be done without removing the head.
Heads are prone to cracking under the cam carrier from memory,and listen for grumbly bottom end bearings and the usual smoke on start up.
Gearbox: Bearings,listen for grumble that sounds like a clutch release bearing and goes away when you put your foot on the clutch,that indicates knackered first motion shaft bearing if you are lucky,if not then full gearbox rebuild or replacement.
Not starting from hot is ECU problem with the main power transistor....
Diff: Whines are common,if LSD is still there check it works with no nasty knocks and clonks.
Suspension Front: Shaking steering wheel under braking front arm bushes are knackered,or have been replaced with cheapo aftermarket chinese copies.
Suspension Rear: Vertical subframe bushes are usually soggy with age and can knock under acceleration/deceleration.
Other than that just the usual checks that you would be looking for on any 30 year old motor
Anything else I can help with drop me a pm
Cams cannot be replaced on the M30 with the head in situ, as the head bolts lock the four rocker shafts in place. The M30 head doesn't crack under the cam either - that's the smaller M20 unit.First up,bodywork,they rust in most of the usual areas,sills,jacking points,rear suspension mounting points,lower inner wings (under battery)front wings,front panel and a lot have been bumped and repaired,check for panel gaps (especially at the rear.....)etc
Engine: Very prone to camshaft wear,even on supposedly low milers,they have a spray bar system similar to the Pinto which clogs up,once the cam starts to wear it's scrap,good news is it can be done without removing the head.
Heads are prone to cracking under the cam carrier from memory,and listen for grumbly bottom end bearings and the usual smoke on start up.
Gearbox: Bearings,listen for grumble that sounds like a clutch release bearing and goes away when you put your foot on the clutch,that indicates knackered first motion shaft bearing if you are lucky,if not then full gearbox rebuild or replacement.
Not starting from hot is ECU problem with the main power transistor....
Diff: Whines are common,if LSD is still there check it works with no nasty knocks and clonks.
Suspension Front: Shaking steering wheel under braking front arm bushes are knackered,or have been replaced with cheapo aftermarket chinese copies.
Suspension Rear: Vertical subframe bushes are usually soggy with age and can knock under acceleration/deceleration.
Other than that just the usual checks that you would be looking for on any 30 year old motor
Anything else I can help with drop me a pm
These were great cars, but only the best ones are worth having. Cheap ones are just shagged out rubbish that will be in need of constant fixing.
- Head gaskets and corroded head waterways due to old antifreeze stewing away.
- Worn cams are a very expensive fix - not that much change from a grand with a cam, 12 rockers, four shafts, head repairs/skimming and labour.
- The old Motronic system is becoming a liability with failing ECU's, DME relays and the TDC and speed sensors on the flywheel. Good used ECU's are becoming rare now.
- Most are autos, the old 4HP22EH. It's an involved £1500 job to convert to manual an the parts required are not easy to find.
- The Getrag 265 sport 'dogleg' box isn't very nice to use. Most are worn out, rattling at idle with a horrid gearshift. The 260 overdrive box is much better.
- Brakes give trouble. Sticking calipers, seizing cross linkage, dodgy pressure spheres and worn out rams.
-Suspension was a bit unresolved. Standard 528i anti roll bars so it rolls well but with stiff dampers. The correct Bilstein shocks are £££, and rotten front spring cups are an expensive fix as only ABS type front legs fit. The front suspension has the infamous upper control arm bushes, the back end has axle beam bushes and the 'dog bones'. I find that biting the bullet and just replacing everything in one go is best.
- They all had an LSD. Many will be worn out now with very little clutch grip left.
- They like to rot. Front wings, front and rear jacking points, rear arches (these all had plastic arch spats) and the rear inner sills either side of the axle beam - that's a very involved and expensive fix. Cosmetic rot is at the front door inner edges, the sunroof panel, front bonnet edge, at ther back of the bonnet where the air scoops are spot welded on from the inside, where the rear panel joins the rear wings and so on. They're not Alfasud-bad, but are old enough to be thoroughly rotten.
-The TRX tyres were, and still are, bloody dangerous in the wet. A set of E34 BBS 15 inch wheels with 225/55 tyres is a good replacement. Not all cars had the body kit. There was a metal bumper 535i with the all the M535i running gear, and this was renamed 535iSE around late 1986. Most but not all have the BMW Sports seats. A dodgy rev counter and temp gauge will be a ruined SI board. A heater that is stuck on will be a buggered valve, but it's on the bulkhead in the engine bay.
All in all they were a great car 20 odd years ago, but you'll look at 5 or 10 before you find one that's actually any good. Most are just money sponges after decades of abuse and neglect. A really nice one is a 5-10 grand car now. The E12 is a nice idea but there are even fewer good ones left and they're not as good as the E28 no matter what anyone says. The L jet 3453cc engine liked headgaskets and never gave the claimed 218 bhp. Parts for this engine (different to the longer stroke/smaller bore E28 3430 unit) are now getting very hard to find. As cars, the E12 and E28 drive is a similar fashion. Tall and narrow, roly-poly, not much grip, superb all round vision and pretty rapid. The E28 was the faster car and I think they were a bit lighter as well. The E12 suspension was designed by Brunel.
If you can't find one worth having, a manual 528i is good fun as is an E30 323i.
Edited by iSore on Thursday 14th November 17:40
Thanks very much iSore, interesting stuff.
Budget in the real world is 5-6k, possibly a little more for the right car.
I think step 1 is drive the best E12 and E28 in my budget and go from there.
Noted on parts issues too, good point.
Interestingly there is a car advertised on Car & Classic with nearly every problem you mention!
Budget in the real world is 5-6k, possibly a little more for the right car.
I think step 1 is drive the best E12 and E28 in my budget and go from there.
Noted on parts issues too, good point.
Interestingly there is a car advertised on Car & Classic with nearly every problem you mention!
Not fair to the E9 coupe to say that the E12 suspension was designed by Brunel! The E9 was and still is considered to be one of the finest drivers cars ever made, and what sometimes still happens i'm afraid is that a rotten E12 M535i will donate it's entire running gear to an E9 shell, very effective indeed, but a great shame with so few left. All the parts that made the E12M535 work so well were thoroughly tested in the 530MLE and M533 limited production specials.
The E12 is superb as standard, the E28 needs a few niggles sorting out. My own E28 has gone a little further, with a solid mounted rear beam,fitted in a strengthened bodyshell, with adjustable rear toe and camber, with strengthened trailing arms fitted with later M5 sliding bearings instead of the rubber bushes. Brakes are from a Nurburgring spec late E34 3.8 M5, on full aeroquip lines. Anti-roll bars are final upgrade E28 M5. it's fair to say you can clearly hear the plate diff clutches from the driver's seat with that setup!
Don't believe all the cam stuff you hear, this is not a pinto engine, it is a neglect thing, not design. The E12 motor IS quicker, but has much closer bore spacing so no margin for head gasket failure. Nothing wrong with the dogleg, yes the action is poor but you can fix it. What the dogleg does is dials into the engines available power much more effectively than the overdrive box, it is MUCH quicker. The diff can be upgraded from its standard 25% slip to be a bit more lively. That's one of my next jobs with a spare low mileage diff i have. All good fun
The E12 is superb as standard, the E28 needs a few niggles sorting out. My own E28 has gone a little further, with a solid mounted rear beam,fitted in a strengthened bodyshell, with adjustable rear toe and camber, with strengthened trailing arms fitted with later M5 sliding bearings instead of the rubber bushes. Brakes are from a Nurburgring spec late E34 3.8 M5, on full aeroquip lines. Anti-roll bars are final upgrade E28 M5. it's fair to say you can clearly hear the plate diff clutches from the driver's seat with that setup!
Don't believe all the cam stuff you hear, this is not a pinto engine, it is a neglect thing, not design. The E12 motor IS quicker, but has much closer bore spacing so no margin for head gasket failure. Nothing wrong with the dogleg, yes the action is poor but you can fix it. What the dogleg does is dials into the engines available power much more effectively than the overdrive box, it is MUCH quicker. The diff can be upgraded from its standard 25% slip to be a bit more lively. That's one of my next jobs with a spare low mileage diff i have. All good fun
[quote=iSore]
Cams cannot be replaced on the M30 with the head in situ, as the head bolts lock the four rocker shafts in place. The M30 head doesn't crack under the cam either - that's the smaller M20 unit.
He's right....that'll teach me to post when I'm half asleep... got confused with my 325i....sorry!!
Cams cannot be replaced on the M30 with the head in situ, as the head bolts lock the four rocker shafts in place. The M30 head doesn't crack under the cam either - that's the smaller M20 unit.
He's right....that'll teach me to post when I'm half asleep... got confused with my 325i....sorry!!
Flatinfourth said:
The E9 was and still is considered to be one of the finest drivers cars ever made
Really? By Whom?I've never heard the E9 described in those glowing terms, particularly in standard trim! They were okayish, but nothing special. The E9 had all the structural rigidity of a kleenex box allied to very soft suspension. The result was a very pretty and expensive car that wasn't as good to drive as the E3 saloon. There were many cars that handled much better - the RS Escorts, Avenger Tiger, various Alfas and even a standard 1256cc Chevette hatchback loan car I once murde...borrowed. A lot of BMW's weren't that highly regarded back then and the E21 323i without the LSD and Bilstein suspension was absolutely horrid.
I had both a 3.0CSL, an E12 and E28 M535i, Alpina B9 3.5, M3 Sport Evolution as well as a host of cooking E12 and E28 snotters. In absolutely no department is the E12 better than the E28. Preferable to some perhaps, better, no.
Whilst I have some affection for the E12 M535i, I don't find myself craving for one again.
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