why do my speakers overload
Discussion
Hi
This is something I know next to nothing about so looking for some guidance please. I have Cyrus 8 amplifier that puts out 60W per channel in stereo. My speakers are made by Wharfdale and on the back of the speaker it says power handling 100W. So I assume that it should handle my amplifier at full volume but it doesn't. At about 75% full volume (or at least when the dial is about 75% of the way round) the sound disappears and then resumes after about 3 seconds at a lower level.
What's going on? I want to play my stuff louder...
L.F.
This is something I know next to nothing about so looking for some guidance please. I have Cyrus 8 amplifier that puts out 60W per channel in stereo. My speakers are made by Wharfdale and on the back of the speaker it says power handling 100W. So I assume that it should handle my amplifier at full volume but it doesn't. At about 75% full volume (or at least when the dial is about 75% of the way round) the sound disappears and then resumes after about 3 seconds at a lower level.
What's going on? I want to play my stuff louder...
L.F.
lockhart flawse said:
Hi
This is something I know next to nothing about so looking for some guidance please. I have Cyrus 8 amplifier that puts out 60W per channel in stereo. My speakers are made by Wharfdale and on the back of the speaker it says power handling 100W. So I assume that it should handle my amplifier at full volume but it doesn't. At about 75% full volume (or at least when the dial is about 75% of the way round) the sound disappears and then resumes after about 3 seconds at a lower level.
What's going on? I want to play my stuff louder...
L.F.
The amp's protection is cutting in.This is something I know next to nothing about so looking for some guidance please. I have Cyrus 8 amplifier that puts out 60W per channel in stereo. My speakers are made by Wharfdale and on the back of the speaker it says power handling 100W. So I assume that it should handle my amplifier at full volume but it doesn't. At about 75% full volume (or at least when the dial is about 75% of the way round) the sound disappears and then resumes after about 3 seconds at a lower level.
What's going on? I want to play my stuff louder...
L.F.
If you want to go louder either get more efficient speakers or a more powerful amp, preferably both.
lockhart flawse said:
Ian - thanks but what do you mean by more efficient? Do I need speakers rated at say 150W?
No. You need to get more sound out for the power put in. If you dig around speaker specs you'll see their efficiency quoted as a number of db (db = decibel, a decibel is a measure of how loud a sound is) per watt (watts are a measure of power). So a speaker which produces 90 db/watt is more efficient than one which produces 80 db/watt and so for the same power will be louder.No there are no tone controls on the amplifier.
I inherited the speakers about 20 years ago so it is probably about time I got some newer ones. Apart from the Cyrus amp I have a Cyrus CD 8, ancient Nakamichi cassette player and a Pro-Ject deck. I play 10% records, 5% cassettes and 85% CDs mainly because it is less hassle. We live in the middle of nowhere so not much chance to go and audition stuff. Can anyone suggest some speakers that would be better than the ones I have and more importantly can take a bit more volume? I would spend up to say £350 on Ebay. I find my currenmt speakers a bit trebly. Thanks.
I inherited the speakers about 20 years ago so it is probably about time I got some newer ones. Apart from the Cyrus amp I have a Cyrus CD 8, ancient Nakamichi cassette player and a Pro-Ject deck. I play 10% records, 5% cassettes and 85% CDs mainly because it is less hassle. We live in the middle of nowhere so not much chance to go and audition stuff. Can anyone suggest some speakers that would be better than the ones I have and more importantly can take a bit more volume? I would spend up to say £350 on Ebay. I find my currenmt speakers a bit trebly. Thanks.
Does the overloading still happen with turntable and cassette deck ?
The Cyrus' gain structure is likely to be set up so that it will deliver its full 60w output just as the volume control reaches 10, when fed with a low voltage input like a tuner or your Nakamichi cassette. If the input source has a higher voltage ( a CD player should be 2.0v max ) then the Cyrus will be delivering its max 60w before the volume control is at 10.
It sounds like your Cyrus is giving its max with the vol control at 7.5 and turning it higher just causes your amp to either clip or its protection circuit to operate.
As mentioned earlier, you need more efficient speakers.
Will have a look on E-Bay later.
__________________________
These missions are both far more efficient than most; they produce 92dB when fed with one watt. They don't resort to being a current hungry 4 ohm load either. The Heybrooks and Focals are also louder than average but both the Mission's will play louder still when fed by your Cyrus.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-M34-Main-Stereo-...
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/good-mission-35-...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Focal-Chorus-705V-Booksh...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEYBROOK-QUARTET-Loud-Sp...
The Cyrus' gain structure is likely to be set up so that it will deliver its full 60w output just as the volume control reaches 10, when fed with a low voltage input like a tuner or your Nakamichi cassette. If the input source has a higher voltage ( a CD player should be 2.0v max ) then the Cyrus will be delivering its max 60w before the volume control is at 10.
It sounds like your Cyrus is giving its max with the vol control at 7.5 and turning it higher just causes your amp to either clip or its protection circuit to operate.
As mentioned earlier, you need more efficient speakers.
Will have a look on E-Bay later.
__________________________
These missions are both far more efficient than most; they produce 92dB when fed with one watt. They don't resort to being a current hungry 4 ohm load either. The Heybrooks and Focals are also louder than average but both the Mission's will play louder still when fed by your Cyrus.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mission-M34-Main-Stereo-...
http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/good-mission-35-...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Focal-Chorus-705V-Booksh...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HEYBROOK-QUARTET-Loud-Sp...
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 21st November 22:24
Sound level is not constant at 60w, it's more like thousands of little waves on top of each other. The simplest way to think of this is a simple smooth sine wave (a wave that rises above 0 smoothly to a peak e.g. +6 and then descends smoothly to a negative but equal result of -6) and that's a very rough approximation of a sound wave. In audio power, that scale is measured in dB... +3dB is the same as double the power. So, since the top of our wave is +6 dB and the most your amplifier can output is 60w, the highest the average load on the amp can be is 15w, any more than that and the amplifier is being overloaded because 15 x 2 x 2 = 60. In reality music is actually more like +/- 8-10dB now (less if you like hip-hop, more if you like classical) so in reality your average is really more like 10w maximum.
So how does this affect you? Well if the music is powerful enough at say "4" on the volume scale then it's still possible for the amp to hit a 60w output happily because music isn't a constant. If you ask it to play louder what happens is the tops get cut off the waves and they become more "square" at the top, which basically means the speaker is being held at one extreme of movement for a few milliseconds. This is what we hear as distortion. In professional audio i.e. for concerts we generally would use an amp rated at twice what the speaker is rated at to avoid distortion... but if you do this at home you are likely to damage your speakers by trying to go too loud all the time.
Look at the sensitivity of your speakers... it's measured in dB for 1W at 1m. A speaker rated at 87dB/1w is half as loud for the same amount of amplification as one rated at 90db/1W. Adding amplification increases the maximum volume produced, but it's paltry in comparison to the sensitivity... your amplifier flat out can only add 18dB to the sensitivity at the maximum without distortion (there is a formula for this but I'm sure you're bored by now).
In simple terms you need more amplifier with the same speakers, doubling to 120w will make the maximum volume louder without distortion, but distortion puts you at more risk of wrecking your speakers.
So how does this affect you? Well if the music is powerful enough at say "4" on the volume scale then it's still possible for the amp to hit a 60w output happily because music isn't a constant. If you ask it to play louder what happens is the tops get cut off the waves and they become more "square" at the top, which basically means the speaker is being held at one extreme of movement for a few milliseconds. This is what we hear as distortion. In professional audio i.e. for concerts we generally would use an amp rated at twice what the speaker is rated at to avoid distortion... but if you do this at home you are likely to damage your speakers by trying to go too loud all the time.
Look at the sensitivity of your speakers... it's measured in dB for 1W at 1m. A speaker rated at 87dB/1w is half as loud for the same amount of amplification as one rated at 90db/1W. Adding amplification increases the maximum volume produced, but it's paltry in comparison to the sensitivity... your amplifier flat out can only add 18dB to the sensitivity at the maximum without distortion (there is a formula for this but I'm sure you're bored by now).
In simple terms you need more amplifier with the same speakers, doubling to 120w will make the maximum volume louder without distortion, but distortion puts you at more risk of wrecking your speakers.
Chris Hinds said:
A speaker rated at 87dB/1w is half as loud for the same amount of amplification as one rated at 90db/1W. Adding amplification increases the maximum volume produced, but it's paltry in comparison to the sensitivity... your amplifier flat out can only add 18dB to the sensitivity at the maximum without distortion (there is a formula for this but I'm sure you're bored by now).
In simple terms you need more amplifier with the same speakers, doubling to 120w will make the maximum volume louder without distortion, but distortion puts you at more risk of wrecking your speakers.
I agree with all of Chris' post above but don't think a 90dB speaker sounds twice as loud as an 87db speaker. My understanding is thatIn simple terms you need more amplifier with the same speakers, doubling to 120w will make the maximum volume louder without distortion, but distortion puts you at more risk of wrecking your speakers.
− A doubling of sound pressure level equates to +6dB spl,
− Doubling of power level in watts equates to +3dB. The unit of measure is dBw,
− Doubling an electric voltage level equates to +6dB. The unit of measure is dBv,
− Doubling of loudness is usually considered to be between +9dB and +10dB. This appears to be vague but perceived loudness is a subjective measurement and varies depending on the listener; it cannot be as easily defined as SPL, power or voltage. Loudness is not the same thing as sound pressure level.
Edited by Crackie on Friday 22 November 17:44
Your speakers are 8 ohms, the 60w rating of the amplifier could be at 4ohms. It's output into 8 ohms will be lower.
It's very likely the amp will distort before it reaches maximum power. It could well have a fault that is causing it to cut out under load, a dry joint or component failure.
It's very likely the amp will distort before it reaches maximum power. It could well have a fault that is causing it to cut out under load, a dry joint or component failure.
lockhart flawse said:
Great stuff everyone - much appreciated. Speakers are Denon but made by Wharfedale. On the back it says:
SC-M1
Impedance is 8 Ohms
Power handling 100W
Sensitivity 2.83V @ 1m 88dB
I'm not sure if there have been different variations of the Cyrus 8 amp but here's the spec from Cyrus' website. The amp is rated at 70w. http://www.cyrusaudio.com/product-archive/amps/8-i...SC-M1
Impedance is 8 Ohms
Power handling 100W
Sensitivity 2.83V @ 1m 88dB
70w can also be expressed as 18.45 dBw so, assuming the amp and speakers are working to specification your setup should be capable of playing at 109.45db ( 88db speaker rating + 18.45dbw amp rating + a further 3db because you listen to two speakers rather than a single speaker ).
That 109.45db for 1m from the speakers so not exactly representative; you need to knock off 6dB for the spl at 2m away and another 6dB for 4m away etc etc. Inverse square law.
The amp/speaker combination should be capable of approx. 100dB at 3m which is decently loud. For reference; you'd have to swap your Cyrus amp for a 700w beast if you wanted to make your speakers sound twice as loud.
Edited by Crackie on Friday 22 November 01:06
These may solve your problem:
http://www.richersounds.com/product/standmount-spe...
Assuming you're within distance of a Richersounds store you could arrange to take your amp along and listen to these speaker, or just listen to them with a similar powered amp.
These speaker got good reviews when they were priced at £600, so at the price they are now they do have potential, although it would come down to your preferences.
http://www.richersounds.com/product/standmount-spe...
Assuming you're within distance of a Richersounds store you could arrange to take your amp along and listen to these speaker, or just listen to them with a similar powered amp.
These speaker got good reviews when they were priced at £600, so at the price they are now they do have potential, although it would come down to your preferences.
Mine goes up to 18 (+18dB), though why not just make 10 louder? 
Since 0 is reference level I don't think I'd cope with it that high even if the amps and speakers could. I generally listen at -10dB which is still an average of 75dB with peaks up to 95dB and potentially 105dB for the subwoofer(s).
Since 0 is reference level I don't think I'd cope with it that high even if the amps and speakers could. I generally listen at -10dB which is still an average of 75dB with peaks up to 95dB and potentially 105dB for the subwoofer(s).Chris Hinds said:
Sound level is not constant at 60w, it's more like thousands of little waves on top of each other. The simplest way to think of this is a simple smooth sine wave (a wave that rises above 0 smoothly to a peak e.g. +6 and then descends smoothly to a negative but equal result of -6) and that's a very rough approximation of a sound wave. In audio power, that scale is measured in dB... +3dB is the same as double the power. So, since the top of our wave is +6 dB and the most your amplifier can output is 60w, the highest the average load on the amp can be is 15w, any more than that and the amplifier is being overloaded because 15 x 2 x 2 = 60. In reality music is actually more like +/- 8-10dB now (less if you like hip-hop, more if you like classical) so in reality your average is really more like 10w maximum.
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