I don't like Pagani's, they are over priced kit cars
Discussion
Pagani.
Makers of exotic and absurdly expensive Italian sportscars.
Hand made with passion and love with exquisite attention to detail.
Surely some of the most desirable cars ever made and worthy of their seven figure price tags?
PAH ! Nonsense !
Over-priced, blinged-up, trophy items for fashion victims IMO for people with more money than taste.
Possessed of no more engineering integrity than a TVR while charging 15X the price.
Pointless. Absurd. Irrelevant.
So why do I feel this way?
I feel this way because I had the chance to have a proper look around a Zonda a few weeks back.
And what I saw didn't really impress me. All I could see was another car makers engine strapped into a simple tubular welded space frame, adorned with several hundred kg's of outsourced CNC aluminium bits and pieces all etched with Pagani logos. Now it is not hard to get ally components made with a logo on them. It is not expensive either. I could have a job lot of ally bits and bobs made with Winnie the Pooh logos on each and every one, but it wouldn't make any difference to the car.
Underneath all of the bling, the Pagani is just an expensive kit car it seems to me.
Ugly too.
The is THE best example of Emperors new clothes IMO.
If Ultima got a job lot of anodised aluminium bits and bobs and outsourced a carbon body then, voila, you'd have a British Zonda ! Maybe they should do this and charge 10x their usual price.
Tell me I'm wrong.
Makers of exotic and absurdly expensive Italian sportscars.
Hand made with passion and love with exquisite attention to detail.
Surely some of the most desirable cars ever made and worthy of their seven figure price tags?
PAH ! Nonsense !
Over-priced, blinged-up, trophy items for fashion victims IMO for people with more money than taste.
Possessed of no more engineering integrity than a TVR while charging 15X the price.
Pointless. Absurd. Irrelevant.
So why do I feel this way?
I feel this way because I had the chance to have a proper look around a Zonda a few weeks back.
And what I saw didn't really impress me. All I could see was another car makers engine strapped into a simple tubular welded space frame, adorned with several hundred kg's of outsourced CNC aluminium bits and pieces all etched with Pagani logos. Now it is not hard to get ally components made with a logo on them. It is not expensive either. I could have a job lot of ally bits and bobs made with Winnie the Pooh logos on each and every one, but it wouldn't make any difference to the car.
Underneath all of the bling, the Pagani is just an expensive kit car it seems to me.
Ugly too.
The is THE best example of Emperors new clothes IMO.
If Ultima got a job lot of anodised aluminium bits and bobs and outsourced a carbon body then, voila, you'd have a British Zonda ! Maybe they should do this and charge 10x their usual price.
Tell me I'm wrong.
You're wrong.
'Another car makers engine' McLaren seemed to do ok with the BMW unit produced for the F1.
What would you suggest they do? small manufacturers can't hope to manufacture their own engines and AMG are one of the best in the world.
'Another car makers engine' McLaren seemed to do ok with the BMW unit produced for the F1.
What would you suggest they do? small manufacturers can't hope to manufacture their own engines and AMG are one of the best in the world.
Edited by Davey S2 on Wednesday 27th November 13:12
toppstuff said:
I feel this way because I had the chance to have a proper look around a Zonda a few weeks back.
And what I saw didn't really impress me. All I could see was another car makers engine strapped into a simple tubular welded space frame, adorned with several hundred kg's of outsourced CNC aluminium bits and pieces all etched with Pagani logos. Now it is not hard to get ally components made with a logo on them. It is not expensive either. I could have a job lot of ally bits and bobs made with Winnie the Pooh logos on each and every one, but it wouldn't make any difference to the car.
The vast majority of cars have an engine which is shared with many other models of car, and quite a few with other manufacturers. Most cars are also made of welded steel, albeit sheet instead of tube, and apart from engines and the body panels, everything else in the car is outsourced. And in some case even they are outsourced.And what I saw didn't really impress me. All I could see was another car makers engine strapped into a simple tubular welded space frame, adorned with several hundred kg's of outsourced CNC aluminium bits and pieces all etched with Pagani logos. Now it is not hard to get ally components made with a logo on them. It is not expensive either. I could have a job lot of ally bits and bobs made with Winnie the Pooh logos on each and every one, but it wouldn't make any difference to the car.
You'd be surprised how much of a modern car is not designed by the manufacturer, it is designed by super tier 1 suppliers.
But all that said, the biggest killer is the R&D and tooling bill, which for a type approved, homologated car will hundred to hundreds of millions. Hundreds of millions divided by millions of cars = cheap car. Hundreds of millions divided by a few hundred cars = expensive car.
Except for one critical factor that you have of course missed by just looking at someone elses car you didn't drive and can't afford:
THEY ARE A COHESIVE DRIVING EXPERIENCE.
i.e., they didn't just slap a load of CNC'd bits onto a chassis and bung in an engine and say "righto, that'll be a million thanks". No. They engineered them properly. In fact, in this respect i would say they are significantly better than a TVR, which were really a right bodges underneath!.
The fact is, Pagani sell a 600 hundred (or more) horsepower car that handles well, could be driven by your mum down to the shops easily, and yet in the right hands, can be hustled around like a hot hatch. That is one mean feat, and one which lots of other "Kit car" manufacturers, from £10k to £10M fail to match!
THEY ARE A COHESIVE DRIVING EXPERIENCE.
i.e., they didn't just slap a load of CNC'd bits onto a chassis and bung in an engine and say "righto, that'll be a million thanks". No. They engineered them properly. In fact, in this respect i would say they are significantly better than a TVR, which were really a right bodges underneath!.
The fact is, Pagani sell a 600 hundred (or more) horsepower car that handles well, could be driven by your mum down to the shops easily, and yet in the right hands, can be hustled around like a hot hatch. That is one mean feat, and one which lots of other "Kit car" manufacturers, from £10k to £10M fail to match!
toppstuff said:
Tell me I'm wrong.
Gladly.They say a picture speaks a thousands words, so here are some from the Pagani factory:
They're no more a maker of kit cars than any other low volume producer.
Your whole argument just reads as "I personally don't like Pagani, so I'm going to make up a load of utter s
t to try and justify this irrational dislike".Come on chaps. I'm not hearing any persuasive arguments here.
Look at an Ultima. Essentially it is the same formula. But the tubes are powder coated not shiny and anodised. And you've got cable ties rather than machined little ally bits.
Same car though.
1/10 th the price.
Hence my thesis that the Pagani is just a lot of outsourced bits thrown together for a massive premium. It offers nothing new underneath all the bling and shiny shiny.
Look at an Ultima. Essentially it is the same formula. But the tubes are powder coated not shiny and anodised. And you've got cable ties rather than machined little ally bits.
Same car though.
1/10 th the price.
Hence my thesis that the Pagani is just a lot of outsourced bits thrown together for a massive premium. It offers nothing new underneath all the bling and shiny shiny.
Well they do have the heater/ventilation controls from a Rover 45 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=113...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=113...
Edited by garycat on Wednesday 27th November 13:23
toppstuff said:
Come on chaps. I'm not hearing any persuasive arguments here.
Look at an Ultima. Essentially it is the same formula. But the tubes are powder coated not shiny and anodised. And you've got cable ties rather than machined little ally bits.
Same car though.
1/10 th the price.
Hence my thesis that the Pagani is just a lot of outsourced bits thrown together for a massive premium. It offers nothing new underneath all the bling and shiny shiny.
obvious troll is obvious Look at an Ultima. Essentially it is the same formula. But the tubes are powder coated not shiny and anodised. And you've got cable ties rather than machined little ally bits.
Same car though.
1/10 th the price.
Hence my thesis that the Pagani is just a lot of outsourced bits thrown together for a massive premium. It offers nothing new underneath all the bling and shiny shiny.
and ultimas are not kit cars either, at worst they are component cars, at best monster leman racers
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