Steering Feel, RIP?

[MC Bodge]

Every rental car I've driven in the past year has had steering that is devoid of feel.

Some of the cars have steering that artificially 'weights-up' when turn beyond a threshold.

Is this computer game style feel now just the way of the world?

Will electric steering be developed to encompass a more 'realistic' feel or will most people just not be bothered about it, not miss it and manufacturers don't bother trying to improve it?

[Kong]

I think it's mainly because of electric power steering which is fast becoming normal. Worst one I've driven is a MK2 Micra - may as well have been driving with a playstation wheel!

Despite the fact most people people in the real world don't care about steering feel, I'm sure the systems will improve over time. The latest from Porsche and Mercedes are pretty excellent from most accounts, regardless of what one or two luddites on here will tell you - so that tech should filter down.

[havoc]

Kong said:

Despite the fact most people people in the real world don't care about steering feel, I'm sure the systems will improve over time. The latest from Porsche and Mercedes are pretty excellent from most accounts, regardless of what one or two luddites on here will tell you - so that tech should filter down.

Think of EPAS like dampers - most mainstream mfrs will fit cheap ones, which don't work very well, but those who care about the way a car drives will spend money and fit good ones.

[RobM77]

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

[Kong]

RobM77 said:

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm talking electric PAS vs electric PAS, the Lotus has hydraulic PAS which is still going to be better.

[RobM77]

Kong said:

RobM77 said:

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm talking electric PAS vs electric PAS, the Lotus has hydraulic PAS which is still going to be better.

And for the Evora designed at a time when everyone was going towards ePAS. It's one of the many things that distinguish the Evora from its Porsche rivals, although strangely the press never seem to say much about it.Do you think Lotus could still get away with hydraulic PAS if they designed a car now (eg a new Esprit?).

[Kong]

RobM77 said:

Kong said:

RobM77 said:

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm talking electric PAS vs electric PAS, the Lotus has hydraulic PAS which is still going to be better.

And for the Evora designed at a time when everyone was going towards ePAS. It's one of the many things that distinguish the Evora from its Porsche rivals, although strangely the press never seem to say much about it.Do you think Lotus could still get away with hydraulic PAS if they designed a car now (eg a new Esprit?).

I'm no expert but there are clearly reasons for using EPAS - efficiency, packaging, possibly weight and it's easier to integarte with other computer functions. For small volume specialist cars I don't see why they need to change from the hydraulic setup - I hope so at least.

[Matt UK]

Caterham - that's all I'm saying.

[havoc]

RobM77 said:

Kong said:

RobM77 said:

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm talking electric PAS vs electric PAS, the Lotus has hydraulic PAS which is still going to be better.

And for the Evora designed at a time when everyone was going towards ePAS. It's one of the many things that distinguish the Evora from its Porsche rivals, although strangely the press never seem to say much about it.Do you think Lotus could still get away with hydraulic PAS if they designed a car now (eg a new Esprit?).

I have to say I didn't think the Evora's steering was as rave-worthy as all that. Yes it was decent, and there was some granularity through it, but it was very light and IMHO the (FWD!) Mk1 Focus and the DC2 Integra both have better steering feel/feedback. Hell, so does the E46 M3.

[davepoth]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the effect of the absurdly large wheels now fitted to cars. If the tyres weren't so wide we wouldn't need so much assistance, which would improve the feel.

[RobM77]

havoc said:

RobM77 said:

Kong said:

RobM77 said:

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm talking electric PAS vs electric PAS, the Lotus has hydraulic PAS which is still going to be better.

And for the Evora designed at a time when everyone was going towards ePAS. It's one of the many things that distinguish the Evora from its Porsche rivals, although strangely the press never seem to say much about it.Do you think Lotus could still get away with hydraulic PAS if they designed a car now (eg a new Esprit?).

I have to say I didn't think the Evora's steering was as rave-worthy as all that. Yes it was decent, and there was some granularity through it, but it was very light and IMHO the (FWD!) Mk1 Focus and the DC2 Integra both have better steering feel/feedback. Hell, so does the E46 M3.

I agree, apart from the E46 M3 and that light steering is an issue that relates to feel.

[RobM77]

Kong said:

RobM77 said:

Kong said:

RobM77 said:

Lotus still produce cars with superb steering feel. Even their cars that have had power steering fitted, the Evora and Esprit for example, have/had lots of feel.

I'm not a luddite, but I don't get the whole Porsche thing with regard to steering feel. I've driven two Caymans and a Boxster, and whilst the steering was very accurate and nicely weighted, I don't really recall it having any real feel at all - it felt very Audi like to me.

As for run of the mill cars - the OP's right - forget it. Laggy throttles, jumpy brakes and no steering feel. I'd rather take the bus.

I'm talking electric PAS vs electric PAS, the Lotus has hydraulic PAS which is still going to be better.

And for the Evora designed at a time when everyone was going towards ePAS. It's one of the many things that distinguish the Evora from its Porsche rivals, although strangely the press never seem to say much about it.Do you think Lotus could still get away with hydraulic PAS if they designed a car now (eg a new Esprit?).

I'm no expert but there are clearly reasons for using EPAS - efficiency, packaging, possibly weight and it's easier to integarte with other computer functions. For small volume specialist cars I don't see why they need to change from the hydraulic setup - I hope so at least.

Emissions is causing a lot of pressures at the moment. I also think that hydraulic steering robs the car of some power (does it?), so that's another attraction for manufacturers.

[Ozzie Osmond]

The Crack Fox said:

Even the latest Porsche system feels fake

Well, I bought a Porsche and unless I'd been told there was something "different" about the steering I'd never have known. Personally I think it's just something people like to whinge about.

[RobM77]

Ozzie Osmond said:

The Crack Fox said:

Even the latest Porsche system feels fake

Well, I bought a Porsche and unless I'd been told there was something "different" about the steering I'd never have known. Personally I think it's just something people like to whinge about.

I fell in love with the notion of buying my first Porsche and the steering was one of the things that put me off. I certainly wasn't looking for something to winge about. They're great cars, it's just that tastes vary.

[irish boy]

Was talking about this the other day with someone. I'm in an '88 Volvo 740 at the minute as a daily, reputation not exactly high as a handler, but steering feel, throttle feel etc are all superb. You feel like you are actually driving it and it's communicating back.
Also have a mini gp2, one of the best handling modern hatches, yet doesn't communicate back up the steering column in the same way the old 740 does. Who knows where we'll be in mainstream cars in another 10-15 years.

[Fantuzzi]

I get worried when Harris fails to mention steering feel in reviews, seems like most mags I read don't speak about it as much as they used to as well.

Funny because even driving slowly in a sporty car the steering is the first thing that grabs you and tells you ' I will be fun to drive when you get hooning'.

[Kolbenkopp]

MC Bodge said:

Every rental car I've driven in the past year has had steering that is devoid of feel.

Noticed the same. Just picked up an A5 3.0 TDI Quattro for a few days (got lucky there for once). Totally numb. Seems to be independent of price range or even tech involved, which makes me think this is the result from market research, e.g. it is what the unwashed hordes actually want. :-/

[MC Bodge]

Kolbenkopp said:

Noticed the same. Just picked up an A5 3.0 TDI Quattro for a few days (got lucky there for once). Totally numb. Seems to be independent of price range or even tech involved, which makes me think this is the result from market research, e.g. it is what the unwashed hordes actually want. :-/

I suspect that most people are not interested in an involving drive.

From what I can tell, a lot of people pick new cars from company car lists, with a compromise between "Image", BHP and Tax/emissions being the decider.

For people that do take any notice or test-drive a new car, I suspect that they will be looking for:

image/status
Flashy exterior with big, wide wheels, but light steering -geometry set accordingly
'Sporting' pretensions
Easy to drive with plenty of idiot-proof driver aids to allow for multi-tasking
Plenty of torque (plus a large headline bhp figure that a salesman can quote)
Gadgets, whether useful or not
'Quality' interior plastics, although nobody ever feels a dashboard.
Some leather on the seats (not a bad idea on the side bolsters, to be fair)
'Handling' won't come into it for many -Steering feel would be too subtle, most will never consider it.
Ride quality won't be considered either, unless they try a similar car with softer suspension/taller tyres.


Having said all this, some of the rental cars have handled quite nicely, other than the steering feel.

Edited by MC Bodge on Saturday 30th November 14:48

[Flatinfourth]

davepoth said:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the effect of the absurdly large wheels now fitted to cars. If the tyres weren't so wide we wouldn't need so much assistance, which would improve the feel.

One of the significant effects of a large, wide rim with a low profile tyre is to drag the car all over the road each time you hit a cats eye or white line. To counter that castor angles have gone up accordingly to build straight line stability into the geometry. The effect that has is to make the car undriveable without PAS. A test driver mate of mine who is extremely experienced and the best person i know to drive round a problem did his shoulder muscles in a race car with PAS failure because of the big rims and huge castor setting

[Kolbenkopp]

MC Bodge said:

I suspect that most people are not interested in an involving drive.
Having said all this, some of the rental cars have handled quite nicely, other than the steering feel.

Fully agree, also on the bits not quoted .

Question is, did this change over the years because customers/engineers developed a different taste? Or have (the majority) of buyers always ticked like this, but, since emergency situations are now handled by a myriad of Bosch systems, relaying information to the driver is less important or even seen as unwanted. Steering feel as a negative NVH factor ?

The big Audi certainly feels like something out of a Playstation game to me.