V12 Roadster values

[jonby]

My insurance renewal comes up on 3rd (ish) January with Locktons

I have to agree a guaranteed value figure that applies for the 12 mths of the insurance period, used in the event of a total loss

That figure should be a fair reflection of what a dealer would ask for my car, i.e. a full (but not over stated) retail price

But there are no roadsters on the market now, an estimated c. 30-35 exist in total in the UK, many of which are with owners who are unlikely so sell over the next 1-2 yrs

I paid c. £166 OTR, new, at full list price including cost of extras specified with AM/Q. I carried over a few bits from my previous car (e.g. wind deflector) and spent 4k on Capristo exhaust, straight thru pipes, fitting, switch, etc so true cost is a little over £170k - that's excluding accessories like fitted luggage and also things done post-delivery like protective film - I guess £175k is total cost of car to me including everything connected to it

So what's a fair & sensible value ? I figured £150-160k, then asked my dealer and he reckons he'd ask £168k if he was selling my car now (with 10k miles on the clock) - what are people's thoughts ? BTW I have NO intention whatsoever of selling the car ! And I accept that I'd never find another that I like the spec of as much but that's the way insurance works - the question is what would my car retail at, with all it's extras, right now ?

I should add that the premium is affected by the gtd value

[mikey k]

jonby said:

My insurance renewal comes up on 3rd (ish) January with Locktons

I have to agree a guaranteed value figure that applies for the 12 mths of the insurance period, used in the event of a total loss

That figure should be a fair reflection of what a dealer would ask for my car, i.e. a full (but not over stated) retail price

But there are no roadsters on the market now, an estimated c. 30-35 exist in total in the UK, many of which are with owners who are unlikely so sell over the next 1-2 yrs

I paid c. £166 OTR, new, at full list price including cost of extras specified with AM/Q. I carried over a few bits from my previous car (e.g. wind deflector) and spent 4k on Capristo exhaust, straight thru pipes, fitting, switch, etc so true cost is a little over £170k - that's excluding accessories like fitted luggage and also things done post-delivery like protective film - I guess £175k is total cost of car to me including everything connected to it

So what's a fair & sensible value ? I figured £150-160k, then asked my dealer and he reckons he'd ask £168k if he was selling my car now (with 10k miles on the clock) - what are people's thoughts ? BTW I have NO intention whatsoever of selling the car ! And I accept that I'd never find another that I like the spec of as much but that's the way insurance works - the question is what would my car retail at, with all it's extras, right now ?

I should add that the premium is affected by the gtd value

Last three that were up for sale in the summer were

£163k for the very low mileage morning frost at JCT
£147k for the Tungsten one at HR Owens
£145k for the preproduction car with 11k miles on it

So I'd guess you are about right at the lower end of your scale.

[Cockernee]

Give you fifty quid for it Jonby

Seriously, though as they are rare and not for sale, it cannot be replaced. So IMHO it needs to be around 140 - 150 in real terms. However, you cannot replace it as they don't make them anymore ......

[IanV12VR]

This is a really interesting question (well to me anyway). How much do you value your Aston for when you cannot replace it? How would the insurance company go about dealing with that. Does anybody know?

I have mine valued for £155k - but not on an agreed value basis so perhaps need to think about that going forward.

[jonby]

you can only do an agreed value if a dealer (or equivalent) puts in writing they agree it's a fair retail value for your car

that's not necessarily the same as what it's worth to you of course Ian !

the fact you may struggle to find any v12vr in the event of a write off, let alone one with an equivalent spec/mileage/etc to the one you've lost, is just the way it goes with rare cars I guess. you almost certainly would never find one with a near identical spec.......

[Manwhoneverwas]

It might be worthwhile looking into GAP Insurance as that may be a cheaper way of bridging the gap between the value the Insurance company would place on your car and the original Invoice value.
I had never purchased this insurance before but shortly before I bought my V8VR last year a friend got his car stolen from the driveway and the GAP Insurance bridged the gap back to the cars invoice value.
In my case it cost £115 for 2 years cover and the GAP insurance will pay up to £15K from the Insurance company valuation to the price I paid for the car (in my case £43K)
Another benefit of GAP Insurance is that in the event of your car being stolen or written off is that they will be on your side to get the best price from the Insurance cover as this will limit their pay out
If you buy this product from a main dealer they usually rip you off and the sales guy gets a nice earner, just get a quote from the GAP insurance companies themselves and you will save a lot more.
Worthwhile looking into it in your case?
I used Easygap although I have never actually had to use it yet (hopefully never)

[jonby]

Manwhoneverwas said:

It might be worthwhile looking into GAP Insurance as that may be a cheaper way of bridging the gap between the value the Insurance company would place on your car and the original Invoice value.
I had never purchased this insurance before but shortly before I bought my V8VR last year a friend got his car stolen from the driveway and the GAP Insurance bridged the gap back to the cars invoice value.
In my case it cost £115 for 2 years cover and the GAP insurance will pay up to £15K from the Insurance company valuation to the price I paid for the car (in my case £43K)
Another benefit of GAP Insurance is that in the event of your car being stolen or written off is that they will be on your side to get the best price from the Insurance cover as this will limit their pay out
If you buy this product from a main dealer they usually rip you off and the sales guy gets a nice earner, just get a quote from the GAP insurance companies themselves and you will save a lot more.
Worthwhile looking into it in your case?
I used Easygap although I have never actually had to use it yet (hopefully never)

thanks - I will look at that but the beauty of the Locktons policy is there isn't an argument in the event of a total loss as the value is pre-agreed

It will almost certainly be cheaper, providing we mutually agree on the value, to insure at say 165k than to insure at say 150k and then get GAP for the other 15k. There are times we may all want to try to 'sway' the valuation on insurance - in this instance though, it's genuinely difficult to know what a fair value is

[hornbaek]

I insure my DB4 with Locktons and go through the same exercise every year. The notion of Gap insurance only works if there is a benchmark for the valuation and then a gap is created between the benchmark valuation and your payout. In a market where there is no benchmark there is no gap per definition. So it is all about defining the value between you and the insurer. As the price of the policy is the function of the size of agreed value you simply state what you think your car is worth and that is what you get. It is not really relevant what another "similar" car is worth as there isn't one around. This applies even more to a DB4 than a V12V.

Edited by hornbaek on Tuesday 3rd December 18:02

[jonby]

hornbaek said:

I insure my DB4 with Locktons and go through the same exercise every year. The notion of Gap insurance only works if there is a benchmark for the valuation and then a gap is created between the benchmark valuation and your payout. In a market where there is no benchmark there is no gap per definition. So it is all about defining the value between you and the insurer. As the price of the policy is the function of the size of agreed value you simply state what you think your car is worth and that is what you get. It is not really relevant what another "similar" is worth as there isn't one around.

I agree almost entirely with one exception - you can't literally think of a number and get it agreed with locktons at that level - even though as you rightly say, the premium level is linked to the amount I insure the car for, they wouldn't let me insure it for say £250k. Certainly that's my past experience with Locktons, who I am a big fan of. So there has to be some semblance of reality to the amount I insure the car for. Presumably you agree a level on your DB4 partly based on what DB4s are seen to be selling for at the time you renew ?

[Manwhoneverwas]

It should also be noted that 2 of the 3 V12 Roadsters MikeyK quotes in his previous post started off at prices circa £10K higher than the price they ended up at, assuming they were sold for the last advertised price.
So why not insure it for £150K since that is a ball park figure for the V12VR's sold in the summer, buy 2 years GAP insurance at £115 to cover the £16K to take you back up to the Invoice Value, then that way at least you have the £166K Invoice Value if the worst happens.

[snuffy]

I don't understand people's comments about not being able to replace a car because they don't make them any more, and further, what does your insurance company do.

Erm,

Why can't you replace a car that's not being made any more ?

But also, there are 1000s of cars on the road that are not made any more, so what ?

[hornbaek]

snuffy said:

I don't understand people's comments about not being able to replace a car because they don't make them any more, and further, what does your insurance company do.

Erm,

Why can't you replace a car that's not being made any more ?

But also, there are 1000s of cars on the road that are not made any more, so what ?

Snuffy,

The insurance company will have to pay you a sum of money which will enable you to go out and buy a similar car to the one you have lost in an accident or through theft. If if is a VW Golf you simply get the value which roughly corresponds to what a similar car with the same age and mileage is worth. Simple.
If you take a DB4 it becomes more complicated. The car is 50 years old. It is believed that there are about 50 original left hand drive DB4s left. Only one or two might be for sale at a given time and the condition of these cars might differ night and day. So it becomes like a piece of art. You simply go to Aston Martin Works Service or Richard Williams and he will tell you what he thinks your car is worth. It is then up to Locktons to agree that. You will get a sum of money but it is very unlikely that you will be able to buy a similar car for that because they aren't around - again a bit like a piece of art. If your Picasso painting is lost in a house fire you can't replace it so the insurance company will compensate you for the value. They won't buy you a new Picasso.

[jonby]

This is all interesting and of relevance

But my OP was
'the question is what would my car retail at, with all it's extras, right now ?'

That's what I'm struggling with. I won't say I know everything, but I'm comfortable with the rest of the situation as I perceive it. I simply don't know the answer to the original question though

Do I take Mikey's suggestion, which would mean 145kish, or does the fact that they were new & factory demo cars which are now through the system, meaning there effectively hasn't yet been a customer car for sale, combined with my perhaps arrogant thoughts that I have a very saleable & desirable spec, complete with everything from paint & leather samples to photographs in build, make my car a little more valuable and therefore even with 10k miles, worth 165k. Or is that me with rose tinted glasses on. I'm not asking what posters on here might pay for it, but instead what they would expect to see asked for it. Which is normally based on comparables. Of which there aren't any. Although V12V Coupe prices do seem to be firming up a little ? Certainly holding ?

[AstonTony]

Saw the HR Owen one, really nice car. It had all the toys including glass buttons, carbon everything and B&O.

Had 4k on clock and was sticking at time I looked at it. Everyone was surprised that it hadn't sold.

I reckon I could have got it for 145k, probably a bit less. Couldn't part with my DBS which was the only reason it isn't sitting in my garage now.

I would say that they will hold their money but maybe they are a longer term investment?

[snuffy]

hornbaek said:

Snuffy,

The insurance company will have to pay you a sum of money which will enable you to go out and buy a similar car to the one you have lost in an accident or through theft. If if is a VW Golf you simply get the value which roughly corresponds to what a similar car with the same age and mileage is worth. Simple.
If you take a DB4 it becomes more complicated. The car is 50 years old. It is believed that there are about 50 original left hand drive DB4s left. Only one or two might be for sale at a given time and the condition of these cars might differ night and day. So it becomes like a piece of art. You simply go to Aston Martin Works Service or Richard Williams and he will tell you what he thinks your car is worth. It is then up to Locktons to agree that. You will get a sum of money but it is very unlikely that you will be able to buy a similar car for that because they aren't around - again a bit like a piece of art. If your Picasso painting is lost in a house fire you can't replace it so the insurance company will compensate you for the value. They won't buy you a new Picasso.

You're summed up everything I was thinking:

1) If it's a VM golf, yep, loads of those, so you get an amount of money to let you buy a similar one.

2) If it's a work of art or a very rare car, again, if it's no more then you will be paid an agreed value, because no matter what they pay they still can't replace it.

3) For a new (a year or so) old AM, surely there are some available that are for sale ? Okay, it won't be exactly like the one being claimed for, but then that's the way it is, and there's nothing that can be done really.

So that's why I don't really see what the problem is in insuring a car that's not made any more. Either way, you know what's going to happen if the car is a total loss (you get a replacement as close as possible, or you get an amount of money instead).

Or maybe what I'm trying to say is that yes, there's a problem, but you know what the solution is, and what the outcome is, so it's not really a problem (because you know the answer; it might not be the answer to the problem you want, but it's the only answer).

Edited by snuffy on Tuesday 3rd December 19:47

[jonby]

snuffy said:

3) For a new (a year or so) old AM, surely there are some available that are for sale ? Okay, it won't be exactly like the one being claimed for, but then that's the way it is, and there's nothing that can be done really.

Edited by snuffy on Tuesday 3rd December 19:47

no - If my car was written off today, I simply could;t buy one, short of approaching a known owner and trying to persuade them to sell it as regardless of spec, there are none advertised for sale on PH, the Aston network, etc

[snuffy]

jonby said:

no - If my car was written off today, I simply could;t buy one, short of approaching a known owner and trying to persuade them to sell it as regardless of spec, there are none advertised for sale on PH, the Aston network, etc

Well, fairenoughski then.

But then it was not your good self that made the comment about "how do you insure something if you can't replace it ?", which was my original question. It's the same answer as insuring any item of which there is only one - you have to agree a value with your insurance company in such an event; but what else can you do ?

[Mako V12V]

Jonby - the answer is a simple one - insure your car for 2x V12 Vantage Coupe's or a fully specced V12VS!

[Grant3]

Surely Locktons underwriter (Chubb) would ultimately only pay out on a value that is verified by a professional source? Ultimately we all think our cars are worth more than they are as proven every time we change

For the V12VC I simply had the supplying dealership give me a written value on headed paper, I appreciate that the Roadster is a rare beast, but the same principle applies.

[jonby]

Mako - never ! :-)

Grant - you are correct. The point is, my dealer has struggled to come up with a value although as you say, the same principle applies

What will be interesting is that whilst I've thought all along that V12VR may prove to hold it's value over the long term, I've always assumed that in the short term, it will follow other Aston models of depreciation, just not as drastically

However there is an interesting factor here. Of the 30-35 UK roadsters, 20-25 went to owners like myself, Ian, Graham & Mary. People who waited a long time for this car and are unlikely to sell any time soon, if ever. Passionate enthusiasts.

We specced the cars quite precisely and there is no obvious alternative, now or in the pipeline. Certainly not from other manufactures and if V12VSR does (almost inevitably) come along, that won't be for at least a year or two and even then, won't appeal to all V12VR owners, although of course I'm sure it will to a few

There were then the other 10 or so UK cars which consisted of dealer specced cars to help fill the 101 worldwide production run & a few demonstrators. They stuck for a while, partially I think because they weren't much cheaper than speccing a car from new and if you had the cash & inclination for this car, you would most likely have gone down that latter route. But they have now all found homes

This is not an obvious car for the speculator or the person that just wants the latest in-vogue model

So it's not inconceivable that very few will ever be on the market at any given point in time which in turn may help values, particularly as all manual V12Vs, 911 GT3s, etc are now starting to be looked at slightly differently as their respective 2 pedal only successors hit the roads