Kit car production and intellectual property issues?
Discussion
Hi.
I am new to forum so please let me know if there are some rules I do not comply with.
I have 7 year experience in Formula Student and now I am looking to start a small kit car production locally.
It would be small city kit car based on donor vehicle (Fiat Punto 2), from which I would use interior, lights, doors, suspension, windscreens etc.
My issue is: What is about intellectual property that Fiat holds on most of the parts that I would use.
Let say that I build a good prototype in one year and people like it, so in 3-4 years I really get to production of 100 cars/year.
Is there any rule book or topic that handles this question?
Regards.
Igor from Croatia.
I am new to forum so please let me know if there are some rules I do not comply with.
I have 7 year experience in Formula Student and now I am looking to start a small kit car production locally.
It would be small city kit car based on donor vehicle (Fiat Punto 2), from which I would use interior, lights, doors, suspension, windscreens etc.
My issue is: What is about intellectual property that Fiat holds on most of the parts that I would use.
Let say that I build a good prototype in one year and people like it, so in 3-4 years I really get to production of 100 cars/year.
Is there any rule book or topic that handles this question?
Regards.
Igor from Croatia.
figor said:
Hi.
I am new to forum so please let me know if there are some rules I do not comply with.
I have 7 year experience in Formula Student and now I am looking to start a small kit car production locally.
It would be small city kit car based on donor vehicle (Fiat Punto 2), from which I would use interior, lights, doors, suspension, windscreens etc.
My issue is: What is about intellectual property that Fiat holds on most of the parts that I would use.
Let say that I build a good prototype in one year and people like it, so in 3-4 years I really get to production of 100 cars/year.
Is there any rule book or topic that handles this question?
Regards.
Igor from Croatia.
Most of the parts you are referring to are normal kitcar donor parts so should not be an issue.I am new to forum so please let me know if there are some rules I do not comply with.
I have 7 year experience in Formula Student and now I am looking to start a small kit car production locally.
It would be small city kit car based on donor vehicle (Fiat Punto 2), from which I would use interior, lights, doors, suspension, windscreens etc.
My issue is: What is about intellectual property that Fiat holds on most of the parts that I would use.
Let say that I build a good prototype in one year and people like it, so in 3-4 years I really get to production of 100 cars/year.
Is there any rule book or topic that handles this question?
Regards.
Igor from Croatia.
If you use the doors complete and build a Punto like car around them then I suspect you could have issues. If you just use the doors in an otherwise completely different car design then I see no issue with those either.
Steve
Same with the interior?
If I use most of Punto parts (seats, dash, steering wheel, side panels) but most of them would be re-padded and wouldn't have rear seats.
Don't know if they (manufacturers) have intellectual property on individual parts. I think they do (there was a lot of problems for counterfeit part dealers).
But still, if you use their used parts for a new product (to make profit), you have payed it, so is IP applicable here?
And final question, what about lights. I would use Peugeot 206 lights. Could there be some element that I could get sued? (again let's say I get to production of 100 cars/year) And how would go that story with using aftermarket Peugeot 206 lights?
Thanks.
Here is some drawing of how would it look.
If I use most of Punto parts (seats, dash, steering wheel, side panels) but most of them would be re-padded and wouldn't have rear seats.
Don't know if they (manufacturers) have intellectual property on individual parts. I think they do (there was a lot of problems for counterfeit part dealers).
But still, if you use their used parts for a new product (to make profit), you have payed it, so is IP applicable here?
And final question, what about lights. I would use Peugeot 206 lights. Could there be some element that I could get sued? (again let's say I get to production of 100 cars/year) And how would go that story with using aftermarket Peugeot 206 lights?
Thanks.
Here is some drawing of how would it look.
smash said:
TVR spent their entire life nicking components such as switchgear, lights, handles etc. from other cars . . .
That is what I am looking for, but don't know much car makers that work that way. And again, how do you know that they didn't buy rights to use parts that were protected?And, do you know few more car makers that work the same way (using parts from bigger manufacturers)?
Thanks a lot again!
Regards.
Rather than worry about IP issues I would suggest you do some market research into the viability of your project. The kit car market is not very large at the best of times.
As you say you are in Craotia where is your expected market?
What is it about your car that will make people want to build/own it?
As you say you are in Craotia where is your expected market?
What is it about your car that will make people want to build/own it?
FlossyThePig said:
Rather than worry about IP issues I would suggest you do some market research into the viability of your project. The kit car market is not very large at the best of times.
As you say you are in Craotia where is your expected market?
What is it about your car that will make people want to build/own it?
Yes, I am on it.As you say you are in Craotia where is your expected market?
What is it about your car that will make people want to build/own it?
But if I have some serious IP problems, than no market research will help me.
Now when you noticed, is there any numbers of how big is Kit Car market this days and where?
Regards
[QUOTE]TVR spent their entire life nicking components such as switchgear, lights, handles etc. from other cars . . .[/QUOTE]
and look where it got them in 2012 :P
looks like they should be producing again 'soon' though
Whats youre reason for using the punto doors? im assuming just easier than making youre own?
I would certainly look into the marketing, as city cars can be had for pennies brand new! what would make someone want to buy one they have to build themselves? unless it was mega cheap, reliable, comfy, avoided charges etc
my 2p worth would be going into the sports side of kit cars, like everyone else has done, but then you have a lot of competition and you will really need background info on geometry and whats works, what doesnt work etc
its a tricky one
and look where it got them in 2012 :P
looks like they should be producing again 'soon' though
Whats youre reason for using the punto doors? im assuming just easier than making youre own?
I would certainly look into the marketing, as city cars can be had for pennies brand new! what would make someone want to buy one they have to build themselves? unless it was mega cheap, reliable, comfy, avoided charges etc
my 2p worth would be going into the sports side of kit cars, like everyone else has done, but then you have a lot of competition and you will really need background info on geometry and whats works, what doesnt work etc
its a tricky one
Yes, it is because I wouldn't have to make it, and most of the parts that would be used.
It would be cheap, economic, lower taxes, funky and nice to drive....but that is YET only my opinion.
Is there some other examples like TVR. Some Car Makers that use other car parts.
And does someone know exactly which parts did TVR use from other cars (on which model and from which car)?
Thank you.
It would be cheap, economic, lower taxes, funky and nice to drive....but that is YET only my opinion.
Is there some other examples like TVR. Some Car Makers that use other car parts.
And does someone know exactly which parts did TVR use from other cars (on which model and from which car)?
Thank you.
Why do you think the tax would be lower?
That may be the case in Croatia but in the UK the tax would most likely be higher.
In the UK tax on modern cars is based on the emissions established during full European type approval. As soon as you take that engine and put it into something else that approval is lost.
Steve
That may be the case in Croatia but in the UK the tax would most likely be higher.
In the UK tax on modern cars is based on the emissions established during full European type approval. As soon as you take that engine and put it into something else that approval is lost.
Steve
About six years ago, I read that Croatia was the third worst country for taxation in the World. Has it changed now?
I realise people get paid less, so that may make it more competitive.
@Steve_D I thought if the complete engine, including ECU, induction and exhaust just past the catalytic converter is used, unaltered, then it will get the same approval (unless the vehicle is heavier). I understand it works like that in Germany, but I may be dreaming.
I realise people get paid less, so that may make it more competitive.
@Steve_D I thought if the complete engine, including ECU, induction and exhaust just past the catalytic converter is used, unaltered, then it will get the same approval (unless the vehicle is heavier). I understand it works like that in Germany, but I may be dreaming.
dandare said:
About six years ago, I read that Croatia was the third worst country for taxation in the World. Has it changed now?
I realise people get paid less, so that may make it more competitive.
@Steve_D I thought if the complete engine, including ECU, induction and exhaust just past the catalytic converter is used, unaltered, then it will get the same approval (unless the vehicle is heavier). I understand it works like that in Germany, but I may be dreaming.
Hi DanI realise people get paid less, so that may make it more competitive.
@Steve_D I thought if the complete engine, including ECU, induction and exhaust just past the catalytic converter is used, unaltered, then it will get the same approval (unless the vehicle is heavier). I understand it works like that in Germany, but I may be dreaming.
In the UK the IVA tester will use engine age to determine the emissions requirement for the test. Again on age will determine if a CAT must be fitted.
After that for tax it will just be PLG (Private Light Goods).
Even if a modern engine is transplanted the tax based on emissions will not apply.
If you look carefully each model and variant of a car will have different declared figures even if it is actually the same engine.
Steve
Your issues are more arround getting type approval or IVA than problems from FIAT or Pugeot over using their parts. Your design does just look like a Punto Trike so what is the advantage? Also Kit cars tend to use donor vehicles that are fit for the scrap yard or one step away from the scrap yard.
Steve_D said:
Why do you think the tax would be lower?
That may be the case in Croatia but in the UK the tax would most likely be higher.
In the UK tax on modern cars is based on the emissions established during full European type approval. As soon as you take that engine and put it into something else that approval is lost.
Steve
It would basically use maxi scooter powertrain (300-500cc) so it would go with motorbike registration, but still be a car. That may be the case in Croatia but in the UK the tax would most likely be higher.
In the UK tax on modern cars is based on the emissions established during full European type approval. As soon as you take that engine and put it into something else that approval is lost.
Steve
Yes, Croatia still has bad tax laws, but i think that current recession gives an opportunity to make a business with using old cars and old parts.
Sell of new cars has came down 3-4 times in last 5 years!
The car shouldn't look like any other, at least not no first look. This is only first "good" photoshop how it may look like.Conceptual chassis is done, but 3D body is just starting.
I just want to conclude first question. Is there any IP issues here? What are car makers that use similar model?
Regards.
There's not going to be any IP issues with using OEM like this. You will encounter problems only if you were to copy the parts, if however you are effectively buying and using OEM Fiat parts then there are no IP issues at all.
If you were to buy a Punto in component form from Fiat and assemble it into a Punto and advertise it for sale then there's no issue, unless you were to pass it off as a car assembled by Fiat.
Ford have helped establish suppliers for exactly this reason to aid the niche car/machinery market to use their components. TVR haven't nicked anything they've bought it through official channels and probably been given the drawings etc in order to help them make use of these parts in their designs.
I know of Audi component distributors and Toyota who work in the same way. They actively promote the use of their parts in these sort of designs. Just don't go sticking a Fiat badge on the front because then you are in big trouble.
If you were to buy a Punto in component form from Fiat and assemble it into a Punto and advertise it for sale then there's no issue, unless you were to pass it off as a car assembled by Fiat.
Ford have helped establish suppliers for exactly this reason to aid the niche car/machinery market to use their components. TVR haven't nicked anything they've bought it through official channels and probably been given the drawings etc in order to help them make use of these parts in their designs.
I know of Audi component distributors and Toyota who work in the same way. They actively promote the use of their parts in these sort of designs. Just don't go sticking a Fiat badge on the front because then you are in big trouble.
Your biggest problem here will be cost.
You will have to establish a supply agreement with the manufacturer to give you x headlights at x price for example and you will never be able to build a car for a profit when you have to walk into a main dealer or motor factors to buy all the parts.
You will have to establish a supply agreement with the manufacturer to give you x headlights at x price for example and you will never be able to build a car for a profit when you have to walk into a main dealer or motor factors to buy all the parts.
ridds said:
Your biggest problem here will be cost.
You will have to establish a supply agreement with the manufacturer to give you x headlights at x price for example and you will never be able to build a car for a profit when you have to walk into a main dealer or motor factors to buy all the parts.
It is about using and rebuilding old parts from a donor car and combining them with kit that I would produce (chassis, body, panels, adapters...)You will have to establish a supply agreement with the manufacturer to give you x headlights at x price for example and you will never be able to build a car for a profit when you have to walk into a main dealer or motor factors to buy all the parts.
figor said:
ridds said:
Your biggest problem here will be cost.
You will have to establish a supply agreement with the manufacturer to give you x headlights at x price for example and you will never be able to build a car for a profit when you have to walk into a main dealer or motor factors to buy all the parts.
It is about using and rebuilding old parts from a donor car and combining them with kit that I would produce (chassis, body, panels, adapters...)You will have to establish a supply agreement with the manufacturer to give you x headlights at x price for example and you will never be able to build a car for a profit when you have to walk into a main dealer or motor factors to buy all the parts.
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