Holden to close in Aus?
Discussion
smiffy555 said:
I'm surprised it's lasted this long to be honest.
It reminds me a lot of Rover......old prehistoric cars that just keep getting face lifted and given some Botox injections.
The only cars made in Aus are the Commodore and Caprice. All the others (Cruze etc.) are outsourced from Asia (usually Daewoo).It reminds me a lot of Rover......old prehistoric cars that just keep getting face lifted and given some Botox injections.
Given the VE Commodore was a brand new car (no longer using the Omega platform), costing over $1 Billion AU in development. It's not what you think. The new VF uses a lot of the VE, but a lot has changed.
Have a look at the new VXR8 you guys are getting. It's actually a hell of a lot of car, shame they badge it as Vaux.
The issue is the huge cost of labour here, and the fact that most people are buying SUVs or 4x4s over a saloon now days.
Bibbs said:
smiffy555 said:
I'm surprised it's lasted this long to be honest.
It reminds me a lot of Rover......old prehistoric cars that just keep getting face lifted and given some Botox injections.
The only cars made in Aus are the Commodore and Caprice. All the others (Cruze etc.) are outsourced from Asia (usually Daewoo).It reminds me a lot of Rover......old prehistoric cars that just keep getting face lifted and given some Botox injections.
Given the VE Commodore was a brand new car (no longer using the Omega platform), costing over $1 Billion AU in development. It's not what you think. The new VF uses a lot of the VE, but a lot has changed.
Have a look at the new VXR8 you guys are getting. It's actually a hell of a lot of car, shame they badge it as Vaux.
The issue is the huge cost of labour here, and the fact that most people are buying SUVs or 4x4s over a saloon now days.
XJ Flyer said:
It's difficult to see how VXR8 production or even product support and parts could survive without the Australian manufacturing and customer environment that it's based on.It could be a massive turn around in the credibility of GM without it.Or are they saying the whole operation is just being moved rather than closed.In which case it still seems to forget that you can't sell cars or anything else for that matter to unemployed workers.
They are not saying anything.A RHD Mustang will probably kill the Falcon (even though it's not 4 door),
and a RHD Camaro will do the same to the Commodore.
(even though they could use the same hardware and make the 4 door versions of each).
The company deserves to fail in Aussie and NZ, they have made some monumental strategy cock ups.
It's a shame for the employees obviously, but it isn't sustainable. Much like the US debt ceiling, they would only be kicking the mess further down the road by dumping in more state funds.
It's a shame for the employees obviously, but it isn't sustainable. Much like the US debt ceiling, they would only be kicking the mess further down the road by dumping in more state funds.
Bibbs said:
The only cars made in Aus are the Commodore and Caprice. All the others (Cruze etc.) are outsourced from Asia (usually Daewoo).
Given the VE Commodore was a brand new car (no longer using the Omega platform), costing over $1 Billion AU in development. It's not what you think. The new VF uses a lot of the VE, but a lot has changed.
Have a look at the new VXR8 you guys are getting. It's actually a hell of a lot of car, shame they badge it as Vaux.
The issue is the huge cost of labour here, and the fact that most people are buying SUVs or 4x4s over a saloon now days.
I'm still trying to work out what they spent all that money on, I had a VE SV6 and whilst it looked nice it wasn't very refined. But then I shouldn't have expected too much from drunks with mullets.Given the VE Commodore was a brand new car (no longer using the Omega platform), costing over $1 Billion AU in development. It's not what you think. The new VF uses a lot of the VE, but a lot has changed.
Have a look at the new VXR8 you guys are getting. It's actually a hell of a lot of car, shame they badge it as Vaux.
The issue is the huge cost of labour here, and the fact that most people are buying SUVs or 4x4s over a saloon now days.
Bibbs said:
XJ Flyer said:
It's difficult to see how VXR8 production or even product support and parts could survive without the Australian manufacturing and customer environment that it's based on.It could be a massive turn around in the credibility of GM without it.Or are they saying the whole operation is just being moved rather than closed.In which case it still seems to forget that you can't sell cars or anything else for that matter to unemployed workers.
They are not saying anything.A RHD Mustang will probably kill the Falcon (even though it's not 4 door),
and a RHD Camaro will do the same to the Commodore.
(even though they could use the same hardware and make the 4 door versions of each).
Unlike Ford Australia, the problem isn't really the cars they produce as the Commodore is consistently a top 10 seller, it's more to do with the expense of actually building a car there due to the very strong dollar, increased trade agreements lowering import tariffs, making manufacturing abroad increasingly attractive and the very generous pay afforded to the workers (guaranteed 18% pay rise from 2012-2015, despite Holden making a massive loss and surviving on government grants.)
DCLXIV said:
Unlike Ford Australia, the problem isn't really the cars they produce as the Commodore is consistently a top 10 seller, it's more to do with the expense of actually building a car there due to the very strong dollar, increased trade agreements lowering import tariffs, making manufacturing abroad increasingly attractive and the very generous pay afforded to the workers (guaranteed 18% pay rise from 2012-2015, despite Holden making a massive loss and surviving on government grants.)
It seems that Australia's manufacturing industry is now facing one of the issues that contributed to bringing ours down.Whereas in the case of Australie it seems to be about raw materials and mineral exports etc overheating the economy.In our case it was the petro pound in which we were obviously seen as a convenient supplier of oil to everyone else in Europe etc,at the expense of a ridiculously over valued exchange rate and in which we were also subject to the lose lose situation of the same petrol price in the domestic market as they were paying.While then importing loads of manufactured products,which we could have made for ourselves,all for the privilege of effectively giving them the oil for nothing while our unemployment rate went through the roof.
Effectively the Australian government is giving it's competitors the means,in the form of raw materials,to put it's own industries out of the frame.When what it should be doing is putting export restrictions on raw materials thereby reducing the value of the AU dollar and import restrictions on manufactured goods so that it can use it's advantage in raw materials to make it's own industries more competitive.While also keeping it's own workforce in employment so that it can buy the goods it's producing.
XJ Flyer said:
It seems that Australia's manufacturing industry is now facing one of the issues that contributed to bringing ours down.Whereas in the case of Australie it seems to be about raw materials and mineral exports etc overheating the economy.
In our case it was the petro pound in which we were obviously seen as a convenient supplier of oil to everyone else in Europe etc,at the expense of a ridiculously over valued exchange rate and in which we were also subject to the lose lose situation of the same petrol price in the domestic market as they were paying.While then importing loads of manufactured products,which we could have made for ourselves,all for the privilege of effectively giving them the oil for nothing while our unemployment rate went through the roof.
Effectively the Australian government is giving it's competitors the means,in the form of raw materials,to put it's own industries out of the frame.When what it should be doing is putting export restrictions on raw materials thereby reducing the value of the AU dollar and import restrictions on manufactured goods so that it can use it's advantage in raw materials to make it's own industries more competitive.While also keeping it's own workforce in employment so that it can buy the goods it's producing.
The market for the locally built cars in Aussie has always been artificially large. The overseas companies couldn't compete because of the protectionist import tariffs. These have been declining, and it has seen the influx of better overseas product, at a lower cost.In our case it was the petro pound in which we were obviously seen as a convenient supplier of oil to everyone else in Europe etc,at the expense of a ridiculously over valued exchange rate and in which we were also subject to the lose lose situation of the same petrol price in the domestic market as they were paying.While then importing loads of manufactured products,which we could have made for ourselves,all for the privilege of effectively giving them the oil for nothing while our unemployment rate went through the roof.
Effectively the Australian government is giving it's competitors the means,in the form of raw materials,to put it's own industries out of the frame.When what it should be doing is putting export restrictions on raw materials thereby reducing the value of the AU dollar and import restrictions on manufactured goods so that it can use it's advantage in raw materials to make it's own industries more competitive.While also keeping it's own workforce in employment so that it can buy the goods it's producing.
And nobody wants big sedans anymore, plus, the Holden Cruze sucks.
And the new CEO is a woman.
Edited by vtgts300kw on Wednesday 11th December 08:21
vtgts300kw said:
XJ Flyer said:
It seems that Australia's manufacturing industry is now facing one of the issues that contributed to bringing ours down.Whereas in the case of Australie it seems to be about raw materials and mineral exports etc overheating the economy.
In our case it was the petro pound in which we were obviously seen as a convenient supplier of oil to everyone else in Europe etc,at the expense of a ridiculously over valued exchange rate and in which we were also subject to the lose lose situation of the same petrol price in the domestic market as they were paying.While then importing loads of manufactured products,which we could have made for ourselves,all for the privilege of effectively giving them the oil for nothing while our unemployment rate went through the roof.
Effectively the Australian government is giving it's competitors the means,in the form of raw materials,to put it's own industries out of the frame.When what it should be doing is putting export restrictions on raw materials thereby reducing the value of the AU dollar and import restrictions on manufactured goods so that it can use it's advantage in raw materials to make it's own industries more competitive.While also keeping it's own workforce in employment so that it can buy the goods it's producing.
The market for the locally built cars in Aussie has always been artificially large. The overseas companies couldn't compete because of the protectionist import tariffs. These have been declining, and it has seen the influx of better overseas product, at a lower cost.In our case it was the petro pound in which we were obviously seen as a convenient supplier of oil to everyone else in Europe etc,at the expense of a ridiculously over valued exchange rate and in which we were also subject to the lose lose situation of the same petrol price in the domestic market as they were paying.While then importing loads of manufactured products,which we could have made for ourselves,all for the privilege of effectively giving them the oil for nothing while our unemployment rate went through the roof.
Effectively the Australian government is giving it's competitors the means,in the form of raw materials,to put it's own industries out of the frame.When what it should be doing is putting export restrictions on raw materials thereby reducing the value of the AU dollar and import restrictions on manufactured goods so that it can use it's advantage in raw materials to make it's own industries more competitive.While also keeping it's own workforce in employment so that it can buy the goods it's producing.
And nobody wants big sedans anymore, plus, the Holden Cruze sucks.
And the new CEO is a woman.
Edited by vtgts300kw on Wednesday 11th December 08:21
XJ Flyer said:
I don't see how lowering import tarrifs,thereby wrecking the market for domestically produced manufactured products,thereby also putting your own workforce out of work,so it then can't afford to buy it's own products or even imports,is supposed to be a good thing.We've been there done it and got the T shirt.Which is why Australia has,so far,seemed like a good place to emigrate to in order to live in an economy,so far,run on an intelligent basis unlike our own.It looks like that's about to all change putting Australia more or less where we were when we opened the flood gates so that people could effectively have our oil exports for nothing.
I'm afraid I cannot agree with that (I am Australian btw). Australia does not have a particularly well managed economy. It is blessed with a lot of natural resources, which generates a lot of cash. I am very dismayed that Australia was the only western country not to go into recession during the GFC and mining seems to be an almost constant source of free cash, yet the Australian budget has not been in surplus for a long, long time. Australian infrastructure is poor. Australian public transport is poor. Australian air travel is poor. Australian long distance train travel is abysmal. Did you know it is almost impossible to get to either Melbourne or Perth Airports by public transport? Did you know if you need to transfer between the international and domestic terminal in Sydney you will be getting a taxi or rip-off bus? If you cannot put a national budget in surplus and build infrastructure during these good times then what the f
k happens during not-so-good times?As for car manufacturing - it is not good for the employees of the manufacturers or the component suppliers but I'm really glad they are going for Australia as a whole. Australian cars just aren't that good. And they are not cheap. A mid-range, non-Australian car will cost about double in Australia as the rest of the real world. If you want something like a BMW 7-series, this could literally cost triple in Australia. I always used to rent Commodores in Oz, but the last time I rented one in around 2011 it just felt like a bloated heap of crap.
I am not sure the price of cars in Oz will come down however as they are de-facto protected still by Australian Design Rules which are often subtly different to what the big markets of either North America or Europe uses. Did you know that ISOFIX car seats have only been approved for use in Australia as of last year. Last trip to Oz with micro-Puff I had to use the Australian Design Rule compliant local child car seat and I spent 1/2 and hour putting that heap of s
t in the car instead of about 3 mins for an ISOFIX seat and once I got the seat in, it was still a heap of st which I would have far less confidence in in a crash than ISOFIX. Are Australian children somehow anatomically different to children in the rest of the world? I don't think so, so why was there an Australian Design Rule for child car seats. There is still an ADR for Australian motorcycle helmets which is different to the rest of the entire world. creampuff said:
XJ Flyer said:
I don't see how lowering import tarrifs,thereby wrecking the market for domestically produced manufactured products,thereby also putting your own workforce out of work,so it then can't afford to buy it's own products or even imports,is supposed to be a good thing.We've been there done it and got the T shirt.Which is why Australia has,so far,seemed like a good place to emigrate to in order to live in an economy,so far,run on an intelligent basis unlike our own.It looks like that's about to all change putting Australia more or less where we were when we opened the flood gates so that people could effectively have our oil exports for nothing.
I'm afraid I cannot agree with that (I am Australian btw). Australia does not have a particularly well managed economy. It is blessed with a lot of natural resources, which generates a lot of cash. I am very dismayed that Australia was the only western country not to go into recession during the GFC and mining seems to be an almost constant source of free cash, yet the Australian budget has not been in surplus for a long, long time. Australian infrastructure is poor. Australian public transport is poor. Australian air travel is poor. Australian long distance train travel is abysmal. Did you know it is almost impossible to get to either Melbourne or Perth Airports by public transport? Did you know if you need to transfer between the international and domestic terminal in Sydney you will be getting a taxi or rip-off bus? If you cannot put a national budget in surplus and build infrastructure during these good times then what the f
k happens during not-so-good times?As for car manufacturing - it is not good for the employees of the manufacturers or the component suppliers but I'm really glad they are going for Australia as a whole. Australian cars just aren't that good. And they are not cheap. A mid-range, non-Australian car will cost about double in Australia as the rest of the real world. If you want something like a BMW 7-series, this could literally cost triple in Australia. I always used to rent Commodores in Oz, but the last time I rented one in around 2011 it just felt like a bloated heap of crap.
I am not sure the price of cars in Oz will come down however as they are de-facto protected still by Australian Design Rules which are often subtly different to what the big markets of either North America or Europe uses. Did you know that ISOFIX car seats have only been approved for use in Australia as of last year. Last trip to Oz with micro-Puff I had to use the Australian Design Rule compliant local child car seat and I spent 1/2 and hour putting that heap of s
t in the car instead of about 3 mins for an ISOFIX seat and once I got the seat in, it was still a heap of st which I would have far less confidence in in a crash than ISOFIX. Are Australian children somehow anatomically different to children in the rest of the world? I don't think so, so why was there an Australian Design Rule for child car seats. There is still an ADR for Australian motorcycle helmets which is different to the rest of the entire world. Up until the AU dollar went trough the roof,owing to it giving it's competitors a ready supply of raw materials,they were doing fine and that included being able to sell Monaros and VXR8's,at a more than competitive price in the UK,which were as good an,if not better,option than a typical overpriced 6 cylinder or small V8 BMW,let alone GM's Euro spec fwd junk like the Vectra.
XJ Flyer said:
If that's all correct we'd have seen more Australians wanting to emigrate here for our 'better' open door global trade policies than wanting to emigrate from here to Australia to be part of their 'rubbish' economy and infrastructure.
The Australian economy is not rubbish. It is supported by resources. To a lesser extent Sydney is supported by financial services. As I stated Aus was the only western nation not to go into recession during the GFC. The average income in Aus is quite high, something like A$65,000 (roughly £40k) although I haven't checked the latest figure for a year or so. The high incomes are supported by the resources boom. Australia also has nice weather, relatively low crime and good rule of law. It has cute furry animals. Australia has a skilled migration program - the EU does not, it is very, very difficult to permanently move to an EU country unless you either get married to a citizen of an EU country or you yourself are from another EU country. All this makes Australia an attractive immigration destination. It does not mean that Australia is particularly efficient, has particularly good manufacturing or does not sqander the income from mining natural resources. If Australian cars were that good, they would be exported. Holden has been trying to export cars for decades. Except for tiny volumes to the US and Middle East and UK, they have totally failed. A good comparison is Malaysia, who have a state supported car industry. Malaysia has been trying to export Proton for decades and it is still a heap of crap sold in tiny volumes outside Malaysia. Thailand next door has a much more open car market and exports cars to many destinations, including Australia.
How many Monaros were actually sold in the UK?
In comparison how many cars are manufactured here in the UK?
Edited by creampuff on Wednesday 11th December 17:52
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