IAM - Not encouraging training
Discussion
The IAM certainly don't genuinely encourage advanced driver training. They exclude the very people who would probably benefit most from the extremely useful training that is available, namely drivers with 8 or more points on their record.
By only offering training to a selected group of drivers, the IAM is missing a great opportunity to advance the standard of driving for all. Great shame. The IAM (and I have a letter to prove this) is, "...concerned that members may damage its reputation in the Courts after having passed the IAM Advanced Driving Test."
Having passed my IAM test many years ago, and recently discovered this attitude after recommending a driver to join a group and take the test, I'm very disappointed with the greater concern for the reputation of an organisation, over increasing driving standards. I won't be pointing anyone else their way.
By only offering training to a selected group of drivers, the IAM is missing a great opportunity to advance the standard of driving for all. Great shame. The IAM (and I have a letter to prove this) is, "...concerned that members may damage its reputation in the Courts after having passed the IAM Advanced Driving Test."
Having passed my IAM test many years ago, and recently discovered this attitude after recommending a driver to join a group and take the test, I'm very disappointed with the greater concern for the reputation of an organisation, over increasing driving standards. I won't be pointing anyone else their way.
I agree that the IAM should offer to train everyone.
There again: I am an Observer. And I am really not sure I want to be getting in a car with someone who has
a) Got 9 points by dangerous driving and has a bad attitude
b) Is a repeat careless driving offender with a bad attitude
c) Is so careless of their speed they've been done three times in three years and not thought that perhaps they should do something about it.
Conversely I'd be happy to get in a car with someone who'd recieved 9 points and a ban for doing a very high velocity with their assurance they were going to listen to what I had to say and act upon it.
I'd rather the IAM made it the Observer's choice as to whether or not to offer training to people with multiple traffic offences.
There again: I am an Observer. And I am really not sure I want to be getting in a car with someone who has
a) Got 9 points by dangerous driving and has a bad attitude
b) Is a repeat careless driving offender with a bad attitude
c) Is so careless of their speed they've been done three times in three years and not thought that perhaps they should do something about it.
Conversely I'd be happy to get in a car with someone who'd recieved 9 points and a ban for doing a very high velocity with their assurance they were going to listen to what I had to say and act upon it.
I'd rather the IAM made it the Observer's choice as to whether or not to offer training to people with multiple traffic offences.
I'm with Don on this one. I can completely understand where the IAM are coming from.
When you pass the test, you get stickers to go on your car, and many people buy the fixed metal badge for the front grill - you display that you are a member of the IAM, and thus a representing the standards of the IAM wherever they drive.
Consequently, would they want somebody with 9 points to represent their driving standards?
Equally, I would feel unsure about wanting to give the time and effort to somebody who obviously has the wrong attitude. 3 points - a very easy slip up. 6 points....you've been done twice, or once for going very fast....make sure you don't do it again. 9 points really should be....and I beleive is......frowned upon.
Coming back to my attitude comment - if your friend truly does want to become a member of the IAM....with 9 points....then what I personally would have done is set up an appointment with the head of a local group. Allowed them to go out in the car with me, have a chat, and perhaps explain where those 9 points have come from - and more importantly, what I'm going to do to make sure they don't happen again. Then, and only then I am certain, discussions could occur, and perhaps membership allowed.
A letter complaining that your friend has 9 points and thus needs driver training is not going to befriend those that are able to make the decision I'm afraid, and as such their blanket policy will remain in force.
The IAM is a very personable organisation on a local level.
I think I've cut across about 4 or 5 points there and perhaps not explained myself suitably, but I hope you all get the jist of what I meant!!
Conclusion: I agree with Don!
Thanks all
Tony (Observer)
When you pass the test, you get stickers to go on your car, and many people buy the fixed metal badge for the front grill - you display that you are a member of the IAM, and thus a representing the standards of the IAM wherever they drive.
Consequently, would they want somebody with 9 points to represent their driving standards?
Equally, I would feel unsure about wanting to give the time and effort to somebody who obviously has the wrong attitude. 3 points - a very easy slip up. 6 points....you've been done twice, or once for going very fast....make sure you don't do it again. 9 points really should be....and I beleive is......frowned upon.
Coming back to my attitude comment - if your friend truly does want to become a member of the IAM....with 9 points....then what I personally would have done is set up an appointment with the head of a local group. Allowed them to go out in the car with me, have a chat, and perhaps explain where those 9 points have come from - and more importantly, what I'm going to do to make sure they don't happen again. Then, and only then I am certain, discussions could occur, and perhaps membership allowed.
A letter complaining that your friend has 9 points and thus needs driver training is not going to befriend those that are able to make the decision I'm afraid, and as such their blanket policy will remain in force.
The IAM is a very personable organisation on a local level.
I think I've cut across about 4 or 5 points there and perhaps not explained myself suitably, but I hope you all get the jist of what I meant!!
Conclusion: I agree with Don!
Thanks all
Tony (Observer)
Bear in mind that by far the majority of drivers who have been caught for speeding are those with accident-free records.
Those who are caught the least are the under 25s and the elderly and these are the groups with the most accidents.
Knowing these facts, which group would you prefer?
I just say, hopefully without sounding too school-masterly, please don't fall into the trap of thinking that speed cameras are catching the dangerous drivers. This could lead you to the wrong conclusion that speed cameras are a safety aid and consequently our current speed limits are sensible.
Those who are caught the least are the under 25s and the elderly and these are the groups with the most accidents.
Knowing these facts, which group would you prefer?
I just say, hopefully without sounding too school-masterly, please don't fall into the trap of thinking that speed cameras are catching the dangerous drivers. This could lead you to the wrong conclusion that speed cameras are a safety aid and consequently our current speed limits are sensible.
I've never understood the badge wearing brigade, but there you go.
Exceeding the limit does not necessarily mean dangerous or unsafe. Can we all please agree on that point.
If IAM are more concerned with their image than whether they ought to teach people, then I think that speaks volumes about those charge of the IAM.
Leave it to the discretion of each individual observer.
Exceeding the limit does not necessarily mean dangerous or unsafe. Can we all please agree on that point.
If IAM are more concerned with their image than whether they ought to teach people, then I think that speaks volumes about those charge of the IAM.
Leave it to the discretion of each individual observer.
In my previous business I used to drive 40-60k miles per year. For 12 years I have driven without an accident. However at one time or another I have had at least 6 points on my licence for speeding (poxy 34 in 30 too!)
I am exactly the sort of driver who should have training, unlike me though the majority don't & if this is standard issue IAM policy then they are loosing out to many professional drivers.
I am exactly the sort of driver who should have training, unlike me though the majority don't & if this is standard issue IAM policy then they are loosing out to many professional drivers.
tonyhetherington said:
I'm with Don on this one. I can completely understand where the IAM are coming from.
When you pass the test, you get stickers to go on your car, and many people buy the fixed metal badge for the front grill - you display that you are a member of the IAM, and thus a representing the standards of the IAM wherever they drive.
Consequently, would they want somebody with 9 points to represent their driving standards?
Equally, I would feel unsure about wanting to give the time and effort to somebody who obviously has the wrong attitude. 3 points - a very easy slip up. 6 points....you've been done twice, or once for going very fast....make sure you don't do it again. 9 points really should be....and I beleive is......frowned upon.
Coming back to my attitude comment - if your friend truly does want to become a member of the IAM....with 9 points....then what I personally would have done is set up an appointment with the head of a local group. Allowed them to go out in the car with me, have a chat, and perhaps explain where those 9 points have come from - and more importantly, what I'm going to do to make sure they don't happen again. Then, and only then I am certain, discussions could occur, and perhaps membership allowed.
A letter complaining that your friend has 9 points and thus needs driver training is not going to befriend those that are able to make the decision I'm afraid, and as such their blanket policy will remain in force.
The IAM is a very personable organisation on a local level.
I think I've cut across about 4 or 5 points there and perhaps not explained myself suitably, but I hope you all get the jist of what I meant!!
Conclusion: I agree with Don!
Thanks all
Tony (Observer)
Sorry, but you are quite wrong in your assumptions. To state that the person in question 'quite obviously has the wrong attitude' is both rude and silly. The person has certainly got the right attitude by wanting to improve their driving in the first place, and has obtained a total of 9 points by driving at the astonishing speeds of 34, 35 and 36 mph, all prosecutions obtained by laser, all on the exact same road in the same place, and a road which used to enjoy a 40mph limit. Now you know the facts, would you still be so afraid of being an observer with such a dangerous driver? Probably not...
The point is, 9 points are ridiculously easy to obtain nowadays, and are not indicative of a reckless driving history. The local IAM were initially quite happy to accept the cheque for 85 quid, and indeed had sight of the licence, resplendent in all its endorsements. Only when the observer suggested that the standard of driving (after around 8 or so observed trips) was appropriate for taking the test, did the full force of the IAM close ranks. I'm not impressed by the blinkered attitude, and certainly won't assist them in further promotions.
softwaresorcerer said:
I'm with Don on this one. I can completely understand where the IAM are coming from.
When you pass the test, you get stickers to go on your car, and many people buy the fixed metal badge for the front grill - you display that you are a member of the IAM, and thus a representing the standards of the IAM wherever they drive.
Consequently, would they want somebody with 9 points to represent their driving standards?
Equally, I would feel unsure about wanting to give the time and effort to somebody who obviously has the wrong attitude. 3 points - a very easy slip up. 6 points....you've been done twice, or once for going very fast....make sure you don't do it again. 9 points really should be....and I beleive is......frowned upon.
Coming back to my attitude comment - if your friend truly does want to become a member of the IAM....with 9 points....then what I personally would have done is set up an appointment with the head of a local group. Allowed them to go out in the car with me, have a chat, and perhaps explain where those 9 points have come from - and more importantly, what I'm going to do to make sure they don't happen again. Then, and only then I am certain, discussions could occur, and perhaps membership allowed.
A letter complaining that your friend has 9 points and thus needs driver training is not going to befriend those that are able to make the decision I'm afraid, and as such their blanket policy will remain in force.
The IAM is a very personable organisation on a local level.
I think I've cut across about 4 or 5 points there and perhaps not explained myself suitably, but I hope you all get the jist of what I meant!!
Conclusion: I agree with Don!
Thanks all
Tony (Observer)
Sorry, but you are quite wrong in your assumptions. To state that the person in question 'quite obviously has the wrong attitude' is both rude and silly. The person has certainly got the right attitude by wanting to improve their driving in the first place, and has obtained a total of 9 points by driving at the astonishing speeds of 34, 35 and 36 mph, all prosecutions obtained by laser, all on the exact same road in the same place, and a road which used to enjoy a 40mph limit. Now you know the facts, would you still be so afraid of being an observer with such a dangerous driver? Probably not...
The point is, 9 points are ridiculously easy to obtain nowadays, and are not indicative of a reckless driving history. The local IAM were initially quite happy to accept the cheque for 85 quid, and indeed had sight of the licence, resplendent in all its endorsements. Only when the observer suggested that the standard of driving (after around 8 or so observed trips) was appropriate for taking the test, did the full force of the IAM close ranks. I'm not impressed by the blinkered attitude, and certainly won't assist them in further promotions.
Were we rude? I don't think so. I even said I thought this should be at the discretion of the Observer - not a blanket ban! And everyone agreed with me!
I am SHOCKED that your friend could get to Test stage and THEN be told he couldn't take it! That is WRONG! The LEAST the IAM should do is refund him!
Personally I think they should Test him. If he passes they should give him a pass certificate! Even IF afterwards he isn't "recommended for membership".
Disgraceful.
softwaresorcerer said:
has obtained a total of 9 points by driving at the astonishing speeds of 34, 35 and 36 mph, all prosecutions obtained by laser, all on the exact same road in the same place.
Errr. Did they all happen within fourteen days of one another too? I'm afraid I have little sympathy. Getting caught THREE times in the SAME PLACE? Its not rocket science now is it?
Don said:
tonyhetherington said:
I'm with Don on this one. I can completely understand where the IAM are coming from.
When you pass the test, you get stickers to go on your car, and many people buy the fixed metal badge for the front grill - you display that you are a member of the IAM, and thus a representing the standards of the IAM wherever they drive.
Consequently, would they want somebody with 9 points to represent their driving standards?
Equally, I would feel unsure about wanting to give the time and effort to somebody who obviously has the wrong attitude. 3 points - a very easy slip up. 6 points....you've been done twice, or once for going very fast....make sure you don't do it again. 9 points really should be....and I beleive is......frowned upon.
Coming back to my attitude comment - if your friend truly does want to become a member of the IAM....with 9 points....then what I personally would have done is set up an appointment with the head of a local group. Allowed them to go out in the car with me, have a chat, and perhaps explain where those 9 points have come from - and more importantly, what I'm going to do to make sure they don't happen again. Then, and only then I am certain, discussions could occur, and perhaps membership allowed.
A letter complaining that your friend has 9 points and thus needs driver training is not going to befriend those that are able to make the decision I'm afraid, and as such their blanket policy will remain in force.
The IAM is a very personable organisation on a local level.
I think I've cut across about 4 or 5 points there and perhaps not explained myself suitably, but I hope you all get the jist of what I meant!!
Conclusion: I agree with Don!
Thanks all
Tony (Observer)
Sorry, but you are quite wrong in your assumptions. To state that the person in question 'quite obviously has the wrong attitude' is both rude and silly. The person has certainly got the right attitude by wanting to improve their driving in the first place, and has obtained a total of 9 points by driving at the astonishing speeds of 34, 35 and 36 mph, all prosecutions obtained by laser, all on the exact same road in the same place, and a road which used to enjoy a 40mph limit. Now you know the facts, would you still be so afraid of being an observer with such a dangerous driver? Probably not...
The point is, 9 points are ridiculously easy to obtain nowadays, and are not indicative of a reckless driving history. The local IAM were initially quite happy to accept the cheque for 85 quid, and indeed had sight of the licence, resplendent in all its endorsements. Only when the observer suggested that the standard of driving (after around 8 or so observed trips) was appropriate for taking the test, did the full force of the IAM close ranks. I'm not impressed by the blinkered attitude, and certainly won't assist them in further promotions.
Were we rude? I don't think so. I even said I thought this should be at the discretion of the Observer - not a blanket ban! And everyone agreed with me!
I am SHOCKED that your friend could get to Test stage and THEN be told he couldn't take it! That is WRONG! The LEAST the IAM should do is refund him!
Personally I think they should Test him. If he passes they should give him a pass certificate! Even IF afterwards he isn't "recommended for membership".
Disgraceful.
I think your comments have been on the whole very balanced - the rudeness was in assuming the person has an inappropriate attitude, without knowing anything about the circumstances. The person is also my wife, so I may be biased on the matter :-)
Your conclusion is exactly the same as I would suggest - regardless of past 'performance', a willingness to improve driving and be tested on that should be encouraged. Right now, the IAM are simply not doing that, which I would think should be a cornerstone of their principles.
Don said:
has obtained a total of 9 points by driving at the astonishing speeds of 34, 35 and 36 mph, all prosecutions obtained by laser, all on the exact same road in the same place.
Errr. Did they all happen within fourteen days of one another too? I'm afraid I have little sympathy. Getting caught THREE times in the SAME PLACE? Its not rocket science now is it?
No - over two years, on a road driven four times daily.
The camera operators are simply zapping all traffic - I'm regularly targetted at 25-30mph on the same stretch, so there's clearly no judgement of excessive speed being made before looking for a 'catch'. And the difference between 30 and 34 on a car with a 180 mph speedo is fairly tricky to spot - it's only the width of the needle. Neither is that extra 4mph dangerous IN THIS LOCATION - I fully appreciate 34 is waaay too fast in some places.
softwaresorcerer said:
Sorry, but you are quite wrong in your assumptions. To state that the person in question 'quite obviously has the wrong attitude' is both rude and silly.
Forgive me - didn't wish to appear personally rude. Let me categorically state that I am not one of the flat cap wearing brigade within the IAM (I'm 24yrs old!). I would COMPLETELY agree also that speeding (or rather exceeding a limit) does not make a dangerous or unsafe. Of that I would have no question at all.
The point I was trying badly to get across is that I can see it from the IAM's point of view. I disagree 9 points is easy to get. 3....6, yes, but by then he should really have learned. For you to say he got....
softwaresorcerer said:
9 points by driving at the astonishing speeds of 34, 35 and 36 mph, all prosecutions obtained by laser, all on the exact same road in the same place,
does to me suggest that he had not learnt his lesson. 9 points, all by the same camera in the SAME place? Has you friend learnt NOW? Another one of those pesky speed cameras in the SAME place and he won't be allowed to drive his car period, let alone with the IAM.
softwaresorcerer said:
The person has certainly got the right attitude by wanting to improve their driving in the first place,
An equally fair and valid point which I would never disagree with. Admittedly you did not post all the full facts (i.e. paid up money, 8 observed runs), and I took the post to mean......wrongly....that all the to-ing and fro-ing occurred BEFORE money changed hands. I don't know for a fact, but I do seem to recall reading in the booklet received with the skills for life package that points are frowned upon and must be declared, and also beleive it's on the website. Something about "if a driver has had a license for X months and is free from penalty points etc. etc." that's all from memory though I do stress.
What I do not want to do is debate the skills of a driver I have never even met - that will be fruitless. What I do think though is that you should perhaps try to have empathy with the IAM.
Taking this one step further though, relating to my original post, depending on your friend's attitude to the observers, the group etc, I'd have hoped the local group heads would be favourable in putting his case forward to the powers that be.
I can not disagree with a driver wanting to better himself. Period.
I will equally not deny that there are some very blinkered groups and as such people would stand in your friend's way once they found out about that sort of thing.
For me, PERSONALLY, (this is not a view of the IAM)....I would have for sure observed him and put him forward for a test [if allowed], should his attitude and driving standard be appropriate - forget whether he has 9 points or not.
Unfortunately though, I am not the IAM, but I can empathise with them.
I do sincerely wish your friend luck. Perhaps if he tries getting in touch with an examiner he may be able to do his cause justice. I don't know, just a thought.
ETA that I posted all of that only after the post by you software.....not after all the other ones! Yes....it took me along time to write!!
>> Edited by tonyhetherington on Wednesday 10th November 15:35
What you have to remember is that the IAM is a charity & volunteer organisation which for ages has stayed just the right side of having the government class all it's Observers as Driving Instructors with all the regulations, red tape and expense that would incur.
As such, the IAM have to have a very squeaky-clean official front / PR which includes frowning upon speeding and speeding convictions. If they don't then the government could very easily move the goalposts and decree that Observers are indeed Driving Instructors.
(After all, if they can pass laws to try to declare freelance IT consultants running their own businesses as being "disguised employees" then anything is possible.
)
Of course, the IAM's members are all individuals and some may not toe the official line, particularly with regard to speeding.
As such, the IAM have to have a very squeaky-clean official front / PR which includes frowning upon speeding and speeding convictions. If they don't then the government could very easily move the goalposts and decree that Observers are indeed Driving Instructors.
(After all, if they can pass laws to try to declare freelance IT consultants running their own businesses as being "disguised employees" then anything is possible.
) Of course, the IAM's members are all individuals and some may not toe the official line, particularly with regard to speeding.
The government couldn't classify IAM observers as driving instructors as they don't get "money or money's worth" out of the transaction. It's the same as if you decided to teach a close relative to drive.
Not wishing to deride the IAM, but surely it would be better to start from a clean sheet with any potential member, i.e. work on what they do after joining rather than on what they have done prior to joining.
Not wishing to deride the IAM, but surely it would be better to start from a clean sheet with any potential member, i.e. work on what they do after joining rather than on what they have done prior to joining.
james_j said:
Bear in mind that by far the majority of drivers who have been caught for speeding are those with accident-free records.
Those who are caught the least are the under 25s and the elderly and these are the groups with the most accidents.
Knowing these facts, which group would you prefer?
I just say, hopefully without sounding too school-masterly, please don't fall into the trap of thinking that speed cameras are catching the dangerous drivers. This could lead you to the wrong conclusion that speed cameras are a safety aid and consequently our current speed limits are sensible.
Absolutely. If there was anything to add to this I'll be boogered if I can think of it.
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