Petrol into Diesel.......
Discussion
My father in law has inadvertently put a tank full of unleaded into his E300 Hybrid.........
Ran it for a while before it spluttered to a stop.
What is the likely damage that might have been caused?
Is it a salvageable situation?
At what cost?
Surely this must occur quite often and one does wonder why it isn't made more difficult to achieve......
Thanks for any comments as my father in law is getting loads of stick from the mother in law!
Ran it for a while before it spluttered to a stop.
What is the likely damage that might have been caused?
Is it a salvageable situation?
At what cost?
Surely this must occur quite often and one does wonder why it isn't made more difficult to achieve......
Thanks for any comments as my father in law is getting loads of stick from the mother in law!
This is from the AA. You might be lucky but there is a good chance of damage if it was run till it stopped. How long was it run for?
Potential damage
Diesel fuel pumps operate on very fine tolerances and at very high pressures – modern systems run at between 350 and 1600 bar) – and are lubricated by the fuel. Petrol in diesel acts as a solvent, reducing lubrication, and can cause damage to the pump through metal to metal contact.
Metal particles from the damaged pump can be deposited in the fuel causing further damage to the rest of the fuel system.
Some fuel system seals can be affected by the compounds in petrol too.
The further the contaminated fuel goes in the system the more expensive the repair. In some cases it can be cheaper to fit a new engine!
Common rail (or HDi) diesel engines are particularly vulnerable – if fuel contaminated by pump wear debris gets as far as the common rail system you may have to replace the low and high-pressure fuel pumps, injectors, fuel rail, line filters and the fuel tank.
Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) petrol engines are particularly susceptible to damage too.
Many cars have a low-pressure electric pump in the tank which starts to work as soon as the ignition is switched on, circulating contaminated fuel through the pump and rail, so it's important not to turn the ignition on.
Petrol in diesel
Don't turn on the ignition or start the car
In line with car manufacturers' recommendations, AA advice is that any diesel fuel contaminated with petrol should be removed from the tank and replaced with clean fuel before the ignition is turned on and the car started.
Potential damage
Diesel fuel pumps operate on very fine tolerances and at very high pressures – modern systems run at between 350 and 1600 bar) – and are lubricated by the fuel. Petrol in diesel acts as a solvent, reducing lubrication, and can cause damage to the pump through metal to metal contact.
Metal particles from the damaged pump can be deposited in the fuel causing further damage to the rest of the fuel system.
Some fuel system seals can be affected by the compounds in petrol too.
The further the contaminated fuel goes in the system the more expensive the repair. In some cases it can be cheaper to fit a new engine!
Common rail (or HDi) diesel engines are particularly vulnerable – if fuel contaminated by pump wear debris gets as far as the common rail system you may have to replace the low and high-pressure fuel pumps, injectors, fuel rail, line filters and the fuel tank.
Gasoline Direct Injection (GDI) petrol engines are particularly susceptible to damage too.
Many cars have a low-pressure electric pump in the tank which starts to work as soon as the ignition is switched on, circulating contaminated fuel through the pump and rail, so it's important not to turn the ignition on.
Petrol in diesel
Don't turn on the ignition or start the car
In line with car manufacturers' recommendations, AA advice is that any diesel fuel contaminated with petrol should be removed from the tank and replaced with clean fuel before the ignition is turned on and the car started.
...that's what I thought but his local main dealer are quoting him £12,000 to resolve the ensuing problems......
I haven't had a chance to find out what that is meant to cover yet but seems ludicrous and maybe just a case of Mercedes seeing a well healed older gentleman that they can fleece!
Thanks for the response.
I haven't had a chance to find out what that is meant to cover yet but seems ludicrous and maybe just a case of Mercedes seeing a well healed older gentleman that they can fleece!
Thanks for the response.
Have just spoken to the dealer.....
Apparently this is such a common occurrence, Mercedes have a protocol to follow.
They take a fuel sample to check for any metal particles as the petrol removes all of the lubricating qualities provided by diesel fuel, causing excessive and very rapid wear in the high pressure fuel pump, injectors, filters etc.
If the tests show any trace of metal contamination Mercedes recommend changing the entire fuels system from the tank, all the fuel lines, pumps, injectors etc.....
Parts alone cost £7500 plus VAT and labour is £2500 plus VAT!
As the car is a hybrid this work has to be undertaken by an authorised dealer/repairer.
The dealer told me that he does at 2 cars every month!
Dealer suggested that the costs are generally covered by the motor insurers and I am certainly hoping so!
I shall take greater care when re-fuelling my car in future!!!!
Apparently this is such a common occurrence, Mercedes have a protocol to follow.
They take a fuel sample to check for any metal particles as the petrol removes all of the lubricating qualities provided by diesel fuel, causing excessive and very rapid wear in the high pressure fuel pump, injectors, filters etc.
If the tests show any trace of metal contamination Mercedes recommend changing the entire fuels system from the tank, all the fuel lines, pumps, injectors etc.....
Parts alone cost £7500 plus VAT and labour is £2500 plus VAT!
As the car is a hybrid this work has to be undertaken by an authorised dealer/repairer.
The dealer told me that he does at 2 cars every month!
Dealer suggested that the costs are generally covered by the motor insurers and I am certainly hoping so!
I shall take greater care when re-fuelling my car in future!!!!
Hands up - I've done it (E320 estate). Fortunately the tank was nearly empty so it was full of petrol and the car died within 300 metres of the filling station.
Car was trailered in to main dealers with mutterings of pumps, lines etc being damaged. In the end, new filter, flush through lines and fresh diesel and about £270. That was 25,000 miles ago and no problems encountered.
Car was trailered in to main dealers with mutterings of pumps, lines etc being damaged. In the end, new filter, flush through lines and fresh diesel and about £270. That was 25,000 miles ago and no problems encountered.
"As the car is a hybrid this work has to be undertaken by an authorised dealer/repairer."
That bit doesn't makes any sense does it? Isn't the engine & fuel system identical whether it is a hybrid or not? It isn't like the engine is a 'hybrid' that runs on diesel or pollen. Now, as I guess the car is newish and under warranty still that might mean you want it repaired at a dealer, but not the mere fact that is is a 'hybrid'??
That bit doesn't makes any sense does it? Isn't the engine & fuel system identical whether it is a hybrid or not? It isn't like the engine is a 'hybrid' that runs on diesel or pollen. Now, as I guess the car is newish and under warranty still that might mean you want it repaired at a dealer, but not the mere fact that is is a 'hybrid'??
amr2 said:
Have just spoken to the dealer.....
Apparently this is such a common occurrence, Mercedes have a protocol to follow.
They take a fuel sample to check for any metal particles as the petrol removes all of the lubricating qualities provided by diesel fuel, causing excessive and very rapid wear in the high pressure fuel pump, injectors, filters etc.
If the tests show any trace of metal contamination Mercedes recommend changing the entire fuels system from the tank, all the fuel lines, pumps, injectors etc.....
Parts alone cost £7500 plus VAT and labour is £2500 plus VAT!
As the car is a hybrid this work has to be undertaken by an authorised dealer/repairer.
The dealer told me that he does at 2 cars every month!
Dealer suggested that the costs are generally covered by the motor insurers and I am certainly hoping so!
I shall take greater care when re-fuelling my car in future!!!!
PPPPPLLLLLEEEEAAAASSSEEEE tell me which dumb ass dealer told you this. Apparently this is such a common occurrence, Mercedes have a protocol to follow.
They take a fuel sample to check for any metal particles as the petrol removes all of the lubricating qualities provided by diesel fuel, causing excessive and very rapid wear in the high pressure fuel pump, injectors, filters etc.
If the tests show any trace of metal contamination Mercedes recommend changing the entire fuels system from the tank, all the fuel lines, pumps, injectors etc.....
Parts alone cost £7500 plus VAT and labour is £2500 plus VAT!
As the car is a hybrid this work has to be undertaken by an authorised dealer/repairer.
The dealer told me that he does at 2 cars every month!
Dealer suggested that the costs are generally covered by the motor insurers and I am certainly hoping so!
I shall take greater care when re-fuelling my car in future!!!!
Thanks for the comments with regard to my father in Laws predicament.
Unfortunately he took the car to the main Mercedes dealership in Harrogate before I was able to discuss options with him, first.
I agree that he is in danger of having the car 'black flagged' by Mercedes if he doesn't agree to pay Mercedes for their recommended repair procedures.
Mercedes are maintaining the AA advice quoted above.......
His insurers are being quite reasonable but don't agree that the car needs all the work doing and have agreed to pay for just a thorough flush through. Saving them a shed of cash!
Mercedes, as suggested above intend to put a disclaimer on any future fuel system warranty claims....
This leaves my F in L with a car with a potential future fuel problem and no warranty cover. Furthermore this will undoubtedly have an impact on the future resale value of the car and I just have recalled that he bought the car on a PCP so his guaranteed value is likely to be shot to pieces as well!
I doubt that his insurers will indemnify him indefinitely for any future fuel problems and should he change insurers he will certainly be left in the lurch.
Caught between a rock and a hard place!
Unfortunately he took the car to the main Mercedes dealership in Harrogate before I was able to discuss options with him, first.
I agree that he is in danger of having the car 'black flagged' by Mercedes if he doesn't agree to pay Mercedes for their recommended repair procedures.
Mercedes are maintaining the AA advice quoted above.......
His insurers are being quite reasonable but don't agree that the car needs all the work doing and have agreed to pay for just a thorough flush through. Saving them a shed of cash!
Mercedes, as suggested above intend to put a disclaimer on any future fuel system warranty claims....
This leaves my F in L with a car with a potential future fuel problem and no warranty cover. Furthermore this will undoubtedly have an impact on the future resale value of the car and I just have recalled that he bought the car on a PCP so his guaranteed value is likely to be shot to pieces as well!
I doubt that his insurers will indemnify him indefinitely for any future fuel problems and should he change insurers he will certainly be left in the lurch.
Caught between a rock and a hard place!
guys please hang on.
First i Work in Warranty for Mercedes-Benz (main Dealer)
and getting a quote does not black flag your vehicle.
Your vehicle needs to be officially diagnoised by Mercedes (e.g. your vehicle going into workshop and someone confirming what parts need changing)
If at that point you dont have the work done, and want to take if elsewhere. thats fine. all Mercedes do is put a note on the warranty system advising (not black flagging) that your vehicle had some fuel issue. and to double check all furture claims of the fuel system, as to see if it was relivant to the incorret fuel. (The rest of the vehicle is still covered)
As for any disclaimer on Mercedes issuing for fuel system, i have yet to see.
First i Work in Warranty for Mercedes-Benz (main Dealer)
and getting a quote does not black flag your vehicle.
Your vehicle needs to be officially diagnoised by Mercedes (e.g. your vehicle going into workshop and someone confirming what parts need changing)
If at that point you dont have the work done, and want to take if elsewhere. thats fine. all Mercedes do is put a note on the warranty system advising (not black flagging) that your vehicle had some fuel issue. and to double check all furture claims of the fuel system, as to see if it was relivant to the incorret fuel. (The rest of the vehicle is still covered)
As for any disclaimer on Mercedes issuing for fuel system, i have yet to see.
We had an Approved Used Car warranty claim for an injector, rejected recently because the car had been wrong fuelled 5 years ago!
It's definitely a grey area - but in my experience if they update the MB system that all they've done is a drain and flush, then there's the possibility that the above will happen.
However, I would still suggest just the minimum, worst case he'll have to replace some elements of the fuel system years down the line.
It's definitely a grey area - but in my experience if they update the MB system that all they've done is a drain and flush, then there's the possibility that the above will happen.
However, I would still suggest just the minimum, worst case he'll have to replace some elements of the fuel system years down the line.
c7xlg said:
"As the car is a hybrid this work has to be undertaken by an authorised dealer/repairer."
That bit doesn't makes any sense does it? Isn't the engine & fuel system identical whether it is a hybrid or not? It isn't like the engine is a 'hybrid' that runs on diesel or pollen. Now, as I guess the car is newish and under warranty still that might mean you want it repaired at a dealer, but not the mere fact that is is a 'hybrid'??
LOL, probably in the owners manual, or spoken by the dolly bird on the dealer service desk.That bit doesn't makes any sense does it? Isn't the engine & fuel system identical whether it is a hybrid or not? It isn't like the engine is a 'hybrid' that runs on diesel or pollen. Now, as I guess the car is newish and under warranty still that might mean you want it repaired at a dealer, but not the mere fact that is is a 'hybrid'??
Like, any other non-£130 an hour spanner expert couldn't even get near resolving the problem.
What a load of cock.
amr2 said:
Thanks for the comments with regard to my father in Laws predicament.
Unfortunately he took the car to the main Mercedes dealership in Harrogate before I was able to discuss options with him, first.
I agree that he is in danger of having the car 'black flagged' by Mercedes if he doesn't agree to pay Mercedes for their recommended repair procedures.
Mercedes are maintaining the AA advice quoted above.......
His insurers are being quite reasonable but don't agree that the car needs all the work doing and have agreed to pay for just a thorough flush through. Saving them a shed of cash!
Mercedes, as suggested above intend to put a disclaimer on any future fuel system warranty claims....
This leaves my F in L with a car with a potential future fuel problem and no warranty cover. Furthermore this will undoubtedly have an impact on the future resale value of the car and I just have recalled that he bought the car on a PCP so his guaranteed value is likely to be shot to pieces as well!
I doubt that his insurers will indemnify him indefinitely for any future fuel problems and should he change insurers he will certainly be left in the lurch.
Caught between a rock and a hard place!
It seems to me that the truth is that either no damage has been done, as some here seem to imply, or it has. Unfortunately he took the car to the main Mercedes dealership in Harrogate before I was able to discuss options with him, first.
I agree that he is in danger of having the car 'black flagged' by Mercedes if he doesn't agree to pay Mercedes for their recommended repair procedures.
Mercedes are maintaining the AA advice quoted above.......
His insurers are being quite reasonable but don't agree that the car needs all the work doing and have agreed to pay for just a thorough flush through. Saving them a shed of cash!
Mercedes, as suggested above intend to put a disclaimer on any future fuel system warranty claims....
This leaves my F in L with a car with a potential future fuel problem and no warranty cover. Furthermore this will undoubtedly have an impact on the future resale value of the car and I just have recalled that he bought the car on a PCP so his guaranteed value is likely to be shot to pieces as well!
I doubt that his insurers will indemnify him indefinitely for any future fuel problems and should he change insurers he will certainly be left in the lurch.
Caught between a rock and a hard place!
If it hasn't, then your FIL shouldn't have much to worry about in the future. If it has then it seems fair that the warranty is refused when fuel system parts subsequently fail.
I very much doubt that correctly used diesel fuelling systems give much trouble during the relatively short periods of PCPs.
Why should Mercedes be expected to carry the risk?
After a long battle with F in L 's insurers they conceded that they were acting only on opinion and that as the Dealership had taken fuel samples that indicated that there were metal particles in the fuel,suggestive of internal damage to the pump or similar, they have now agreed to fund the recommended repairs.
Mercedes agreed to reduce the price of the job and the warranty still stands in full.
Insurers were persuaded that having negative history on the Mercedes system would probably reduce the guaranteed value and/or the resale value.
Long battle but good outcome for F in L.
Thanks for all the input.
Mercedes agreed to reduce the price of the job and the warranty still stands in full.
Insurers were persuaded that having negative history on the Mercedes system would probably reduce the guaranteed value and/or the resale value.
Long battle but good outcome for F in L.
Thanks for all the input.
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