RE: AMG into Aston - an idea
Tuesday 17th December 2013
One of the reasons we were especially keen to try the SLK55 AMG was to have a go with its engine. Now, this is into the realms of speculation but the normally aspirated 5.5-litre V8 in this car is - as touched upon in our earlier story - something of an oddity in the current AMG range. Known as the M152, it's based on the M157 twin-turbo 5.5 which is now being phased out in favour of a forthcoming downsized V8 intended to answer restrictions on bigger engines in important markets like China.
Well, it's much better looking than the SLKOn the face of it chopping the turbos off and shoving it under the bonnet of the SLK to avoid treading on the toes of the SL63 seems like a pretty cheap way of making an AMG version. But that's not really the way AMG does things and the investment that's gone into an engine that stands a very real possibility of being a one-hit-wonder is considerable.
A 5.5-litre V8 Vantage? What's not to like?Aston's V8 doesn't want for charisma but in the modern world its 321g/km and low 20s mpg are increasingly problematic in a world where a Carrera S manages 205g/km and over 30mpg. Much as we like to imagine buyers in this sector don't care about such trifles it's the kind of bottom line figure that might preclude someone even stepping foot in an Aston dealership. Aston hasn't the money to develop an engine like this itself. But there it is in the SLK, ready to go.
AMG into Aston - an idea
We like AMGs, we like Aston Martins and we like V8s - one way this might add up to something good
Well, it's much better looking than the SLK
Compared with the M157 the M152 gets new heads and cam drive, an all-aluminium crankcase, cylinder cut-off, a chunky 12.6:1 compression ratio and 7,000rpm+ redline. In the SLK it achieves 421hp, 398lb ft, 195g/km and a claimed 33.6mpg. Pretty impressive numbers for a normally aspirated V8. And if the SLK55 is a flawed gem where else might this engine find a home?
You can probably see where we're going with this. Yep, given the much discussed AMG-Aston Martin engine supply deal and fresh with the delights of enjoying it in the SLK we got to wondering what a V8 Vantage with this motor might be like. It'd answer any queasiness about Aston going turbocharged for sure and though it matches the existing Aston 4.7 for power it punches harder on torque at 398lb ft against 321lb ft. It also sounds brilliant, a prerequisite for any Aston, while seamlessly switching between four- and eight-cylinder modes for fuel-saving cruising.
A 5.5-litre V8 Vantage? What's not to like?
So. A 5.5-litre V8 Vantage with sub-200g/km emissions, fuel saving cylinder cut-off, 400hp plus and a wickedly exciting engine note? And some ROI for AMG on an engine that might otherwise have disappeared into obscurity? We can see how this relationship might work well for all concerned, not least those of us who like a noisy normally aspirated V8!
Oh, and we talked to Aston Martin. And got a polite chuckle in response. C'mon guys, even if it's just a stop-gap...
Discussion
Aston needs more than an engine supply deal I think...I think the VH architecture is due to be with us until 2016. The current cars are going to look very,very old at that stage.
There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
Cheib said:
Aston needs more than an engine supply deal I think...I think the VH architecture is due to be with us until 2016. The current cars are going to look very,very old at that stage.
There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
God what a ghastly idea . How long before you get a shared BMW/Aston platform to cut down on development costs, taking away the uniqueness that attracts people to Aston in the first place?There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
I dont think either; that co2 emmisions even come into the thought of someone with £150,000 to spend, whats more important to Aston buyers i think is the shear looks, sound and heritage associated with the Marque. Take that away by distilling it with a German rep mobile manufacturer would take that all away in time.
Granted C02 needs to come down to get into certain markets but getting a new engine out of someone like Ricardo engineering (as Mclaren have done) would be a much better route to protecting brand values and desire ability.
Cheib said:
Aston needs more than an engine supply deal I think...I think the VH architecture is due to be with us until 2016. The current cars are going to look very,very old at that stage.
There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
You're right about BMW being the best candidates for the job of taking Aston under their wing. Lamborghini might have prospered with Audi's ownership but it also lost a lot of the brand's character. I'm sure BMW would be able to keep the Aston Martin spirit alive... There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
I'm sure you're all thinking about what BMW did to MINI (Paceman, Countryman...) but there were good parts to it as well, such as the brilliant Mini Cooper.
Cheib said:
Aston needs more than an engine supply deal I think...I think the VH architecture is due to be with us until 2016. The current cars are going to look very,very old at that stage.
But the VH architecture isn't the platform of the car it is the engineering methodology used to built the chassis, much in the same way that Ferrari build the aluminium chassis of a 458 in the same way it did a 360.The designs are different for each new model but the basic principles for how they are made remain the same, this point is brought up a lot but I don't see what this issue is?
jamespink said:
MarkwG said:
Matt UK said:
As for engine heritage, isn't the V12 two Ford V6 engines spliced together?
No.You can find more interesting info about the M152 engine here:
http://eblog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/2011/07/new...
It should weigh 187 kg, not that bad. Anyway having owned and loved a 4.3 V8 I can't really complain about that engine, it was fast enough compared to 911 997 alternatives. The E92 M3 V8 was better but it wasn't available in sportscar body!
http://eblog.mercedes-benz-passion.com/2011/07/new...
It should weigh 187 kg, not that bad. Anyway having owned and loved a 4.3 V8 I can't really complain about that engine, it was fast enough compared to 911 997 alternatives. The E92 M3 V8 was better but it wasn't available in sportscar body!
jl34 said:
Cheib said:
Aston needs more than an engine supply deal I think...I think the VH architecture is due to be with us until 2016. The current cars are going to look very,very old at that stage.
There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
God what a ghastly idea . How long before you get a shared BMW/Aston platform to cut down on development costs, taking away the uniqueness that attracts people to Aston in the first place?There were rumours of the current owners wanting out a couple of years ago....I think Aston would do best as a full subsidiary of the likes of Mercedes or BMW rather than a supply agreement. Look at how the likes of Lambo and RR have prospered under full ownership.
Personally I think the perfect fit for Aston would be BMW. BMW basically don't compete with Aston on price or product (AMG and Mercedes do already to an extent) and I am sure can provide the necessary engines worthy of an Aston.
I dont think either; that co2 emmisions even come into the thought of someone with £150,000 to spend, whats more important to Aston buyers i think is the shear looks, sound and heritage associated with the Marque. Take that away by distilling it with a German rep mobile manufacturer would take that all away in time.
Granted C02 needs to come down to get into certain markets but getting a new engine out of someone like Ricardo engineering (as Mclaren have done) would be a much better route to protecting brand values and desire ability.
The problem is Astons current customer base isn't big enough to sustain growth, and it's beginning to show if they're can't afford to design their own engines. The world moves on, Aston can either move on with it or drown fighting the current. IMO the tie up with AMG is a good plan, I don't see any benefit for the Germans to fully subsidise it so unless the current owners really do want out I don't think it'll be happening. That said I'd rather see it in the hands of BMW/MB than VAG..
Sampaio said:
You're right about BMW being the best candidates for the job of taking Aston under their wing. Lamborghini might have prospered with Audi's ownership but it also lost a lot of the brand's character. I'm sure BMW would be able to keep the Aston Martin spirit alive...
I'm sure you're all thinking about what BMW did to MINI (Paceman, Countryman...) but there were good parts to it as well, such as the brilliant Mini Cooper.
If by 'Character' you mean 'lack of reliability and useability', then I agree with you.I'm sure you're all thinking about what BMW did to MINI (Paceman, Countryman...) but there were good parts to it as well, such as the brilliant Mini Cooper.
Other wise, Lambos are still an absolute thrill to drive. The 'engine' has certainly not lost any character. And all that with the added bonus that you can now enjoy the car more often without having to worry what part is going to break next.
I think a deal with BMW would be a shame, IMO. Given their current trend towards electric/ hybrid tech, I think they'd end up creating a hybrid Aston. Maybe some people would actually like that....but I certainly wouldn't. That really would be a 'brand losing character'.
All IMO ofcourse
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