Should Motorists Be Braced For A Financial Kicking

[Tannedbaldhead]

I notice that as things have started to pick up a lot of brand new cars are starting to appear on the drives of my near neighbours in in the surrounding cul-de-sacs. An awful lot of them seem to be the New Aston grilled Fiesta (not sure whether company or privately purchased) that are replacing what seemed to be the previous car of its day the Nissan Qashqai. The Astra/Golf/A3 second car seems to be being replaced by an UP, Aygo/C1 or FIAT 500. I'll bet every one of these cars will be either a zero or £35pa rod tax contributor. On top of this they'll be using 10+% less fuel than the cars they have replaced. Assuming this is a nationwide phenomenon that's a lot of lost revenue to the government.

Driving out of my estate first thing a quick driver notices is how bloody slowly everyone is driving on A roads and the motorway (I feel like a speed demon travelling at an indicated 80-85 these days). Again if everyone is driving like Miss Daisy wont that hugely decrease the amount of fuel we burn and slash govt income.

Eventually I park up my work's Fiesta van in the office car-park. It used to be a car till company policy changed and the commute to and from home to the office became classed as personal mileage charged at 15p per mile. This combined with the £47 a month company car tax meant my co-car was costing me well over £200 a month. There are 12 Fiesta vans in the same car park all of which sit in spaces previously occupied by Vauxhall Astras and Insignias. Give an average of £50 per car per month in tax contributions and extrapolate those figures into the many other companies where vans are replacing cars or Fiestas and Polos are considered as valid replacements for Golfs and Focuses (or even Mondeos and Insignias) and again I suspect the Govt are losing a stload of cashmoney.

What worries me is when and how are they going to find away to get it back.

[Rubin215]

Easy.

Blame the public sector, privatise as much of it as they can, make most of the staff redundant, cut wages and rob the pensions of everyone left.

It worked for the financial crisis, so it's bound to work for a bit of lost roads revenue...

[richs2891]

I think the government are already worrying about the VED they are losing. Why the government though that motorists would just keep happily paying the large amount of VED especially for car that emit more than 226g of Co2 I just cant work it out. Understandable people feel robbed by this - its not like the road structure are in good state of repair ! Added to the ever increasing price of fuel. So what do people do, simply they go out and buy a more economical car both fuel wise and VED wise and drive slower.

All will happen is that the government will shuffle the limits for the VED bands around to try and recoup some costs, And other little things to try and save cash like no longer having to display a road fund licence disc. So yeah heading for a financial kicking !
In one way its good as it making car manufacturers come up with more economical / innovative ways to save fuel etc. Great for those that change car every three years or lease them, so dont end up with big repair bills when the technology goes wrong. Not so good for those that cant afford to do the above.
Colin Chapman had the right idea - less weight, so need less power, so less fuel burnt !

[valiant]

If you look at what much of the rest of Europe is paying in VED, we get away lightly.

It's only a matter of time before there is another re-banding where everyone moves up a band or the Government moves us in line with the European average and has the nasty EU to blame it on.

[TheLordJohn]

valiant said:

If you look at what much of the rest of Europe is paying in VED, we get away lightly.

It's only a matter of time before there is another re-banding where everyone moves up a band or the Government moves us in line with the European average and has the nasty EU to blame it on.

We pay through the nose - in relative terms. £35billion a year in road based taxes, and £9billion sent on the roads.
There's absolutely zero need to increase road tax, if we just didn't throw away £billions every year on all sorts of ste!
I wouldn't be too bothered if we had a decent network system...

[budgie smuggler]

TheLordJohn said:

valiant said:

If you look at what much of the rest of Europe is paying in VED, we get away lightly.

It's only a matter of time before there is another re-banding where everyone moves up a band or the Government moves us in line with the European average and has the nasty EU to blame it on.

We pay through the nose - in relative terms. £35billion a year in road based taxes, and £9billion sent on the roads.
There's absolutely zero need to increase road tax, if we just didn't throw away £billions every year on all sorts of ste!
I wouldn't be too bothered if we had a decent network system...

The roads are only a small part of the costs. Look at how much the NHS spends fixing people after crashes, how much the fire and police spend attending accidents stopping drunk drivers etc, the costs of ongoing care for asthma and other pollution related issues etc. it goes on and on. I bet 35 bn doesn't even cover it.

Edit: the estimated cost is 48 bn
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/25/car-p...

Edited by budgie smuggler on Thursday 26th December 13:55

[TheLordJohn]

budgie smuggler said:

The roads are only a small part of the costs. Look at how much the NHS spends fixing people after crashes, how much the fire and police spend attending accidents stopping drunk drivers etc, the costs of ongoing care for asthma and other pollution related issues etc. it goes on and on. I bet 35 bn doesn't even cover it.

Edit: the estimated cost is 48 bn
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/25/car-p...

Edited by budgie smuggler on Thursday 26th December 13:55

Well that is The Guardian after all...
The £12billion we gave in foreign aid last year would almost make up the difference.

Edited by TheLordJohn on Thursday 26th December 14:01

[daemon]

Tannedbaldhead said:

I notice that as things have started to pick up a lot of brand new cars are starting to appear on the drives of my near neighbours in in the surrounding cul-de-sacs. An awful lot of them seem to be the New Aston grilled Fiesta (not sure whether company or privately purchased) that are replacing what seemed to be the previous car of its day the Nissan Qashqai. The Astra/Golf/A3 second car seems to be being replaced by an UP, Aygo/C1 or FIAT 500. I'll bet every one of these cars will be either a zero or £35pa rod tax contributor. On top of this they'll be using 10+% less fuel than the cars they have replaced. Assuming this is a nationwide phenomenon that's a lot of lost revenue to the government.

Driving out of my estate first thing a quick driver notices is how bloody slowly everyone is driving on A roads and the motorway (I feel like a speed demon travelling at an indicated 80-85 these days). Again if everyone is driving like Miss Daisy wont that hugely decrease the amount of fuel we burn and slash govt income.

Eventually I park up my work's Fiesta van in the office car-park. It used to be a car till company policy changed and the commute to and from home to the office became classed as personal mileage charged at 15p per mile. This combined with the £47 a month company car tax meant my co-car was costing me well over £200 a month. There are 12 Fiesta vans in the same car park all of which sit in spaces previously occupied by Vauxhall Astras and Insignias. Give an average of £50 per car per month in tax contributions and extrapolate those figures into the many other companies where vans are replacing cars or Fiestas and Polos are considered as valid replacements for Golfs and Focuses (or even Mondeos and Insignias) and again I suspect the Govt are losing a stload of cashmoney.

What worries me is when and how are they going to find away to get it back.

This has been a phenomenon for quite some time. Cars are getting more economical and cleaner.

I would say once people start paying road tax monthly from next October, they'll up that, plus once the economy starts to grow again they'll up fuel duty.

[turbobloke]

budgie smuggler said:

TheLordJohn said:

valiant said:

If you look at what much of the rest of Europe is paying in VED, we get away lightly.

It's only a matter of time before there is another re-banding where everyone moves up a band or the Government moves us in line with the European average and has the nasty EU to blame it on.

We pay through the nose - in relative terms. £35billion a year in road based taxes, and £9billion sent on the roads.
There's absolutely zero need to increase road tax, if we just didn't throw away £billions every year on all sorts of ste!
I wouldn't be too bothered if we had a decent network system...

The roads are only a small part of the costs. Look at how much the NHS spends fixing people after crashes, how much the fire and police spend attending accidents stopping drunk drivers etc, the costs of ongoing care for asthma and other pollution related issues etc. it goes on and on. I bet 35 bn doesn't even cover it.

Edit: the estimated cost is 48 bn
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/25/car-p...
[/footnote]

Some time ago a study by Dr David Newbury looked at direct and indirect costs of motoring including the so-called social and environmental costs of accidents and emissions and concluded that UK motorists more than paid their way. In reaching the conclusion that total costs "more than cover the full social and environmental costs of transport, as well as the cost of providing the transport infrastructure", Newbery even included the supposed costs of non-existent manmadeup global warming, which need to be discounted in order to keep reality on board.

Since then, air quality has improved as emissions have been cut, accident rates including fatacs have gone down, while motoring costs including traditional as well as 'green' varieties of taxes and duties have increased. Restrictions on private transport have also increased and road building has stalled. The current situation is even more positive, unless the prejudiced guestimating and double accounting practices of anti-car activists is considered, but this doesn't deserve to be called economics.

Beyond that, the contribution of motoring to the economy and quality of life needs to be added to the equation in a full cost-benefit analysis, as opposed to a motoring payments vs motoring costs analysis. Driving a car has even been found to be beneficial to health compared to using public transport, in a Medical Research Council study that set out to show the opposite. The finding held up after the usual social science fiddlefactoring to 'take into account' the effects of age, social class and income.

These days, particularly in view of how TRL reports have changed over the last 20 years, it's doubtful whether either Newbery or the MRC findings would be given any publicity at all, just as the damning but currently suppressed report into useless and expensive wind turbines is sitting inside DECC while incompetent politicians scrap over whether the truth should be told.

[Elroy Blue]

daemon said:

This has been a phenomenon for quite some time. Cars are getting more economical and cleaner.

I would say once people start paying road tax monthly from next October, they'll up that, plus once the economy starts to grow again they'll up fuel duty.

As far as I'm concerned, the monthly tax payment is a cover to get a direct debit for motorists set up. Once it's all in place road charging will come into force with a vengance. (All for our own good you understand)

[TheLordJohn]

turbobloke said:

Some time ago a study by Dr David Newbury looked at direct and indirect costs of motoring including the so-called social and environmental costs of accidents and emissions and concluded that UK motorists more than paid their way. In reaching the conclusion that total costs "more than cover the full social and environmental costs of transport, as well as the cost of providing the transport infrastructure", Newbery even included the supposed costs of non-existent manmadeup global warming, which need to be discounted in order to keep reality on board.

Since then, air quality has improved as emissions have been cut, accident rates including fatacs have gone down, while motoring costs including traditional as well as 'green' varieties of taxes and duties have increased. Restrictions on private transport have also increased and road building has stalled. The current situation is even more positive, unless the prejudiced guestimating and double accounting practices of anti-car activists is considered, but this doesn't deserve to be called economics.

Beyond that, the contribution of motoring to the economy and quality of life needs to be added to the equation in a full cost-benefit analysis, as opposed to a motoring payments vs motoring costs analysis. Driving a car has even been found to be beneficial to health compared to using public transport, in a Medical Research Council study that set out to show the opposite. The finding held up after the usual social science fiddlefactoring to 'take into account' the effects of age, social class and income.

These days, particularly in view of how TRL reports have changed over the last 20 years, it's doubtful whether either Newbery or the MRC findings would be given any publicity at all, just as the damning but currently suppressed report into useless and expensive wind turbines is sitting inside DECC while incompetent politicians scrap over whether the truth should be told.

I like you.

[CBR JGWRR]

Elroy Blue said:

daemon said:

This has been a phenomenon for quite some time. Cars are getting more economical and cleaner.

I would say once people start paying road tax monthly from next October, they'll up that, plus once the economy starts to grow again they'll up fuel duty.

As far as I'm concerned, the monthly tax payment is a cover to get a direct debit for motorists set up. Once it's all in place road charging will come into force with a vengance. (All for our own good you understand)

And you can guarantee it will be in addition to VED, not instead of.

Wonder how large a bet on it would be in order to not lose money when it happens...

[Who me ?]

Simple - when I got my present car six years ago it was in the second VED band. Since then slowly but surely it's moved up the bands ,as HMG trim the figures to recoup some of the zero losses. This Government hates thiefs ,not because of their actions, but because they hate competition .

[TheLordJohn]

[quote=Who me ?]Simple - when I got my present car six years ago it was in the second VED band. Since then slowly but surely it's moved up the bands ,as HMG trim the figures to recoup some of the zero losses. This Government hates thiefs ,not because of their actions, but because they hate competition .
[/quote]

You can't honestly say Labour wouldn't have done the same, or worse?
At least we've got a 'Government' who can invest the money we give them and make more, rather than just tax and tax and tax us.

[XJ Flyer]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Driving out of my estate first thing a quick driver notices is how bloody slowly everyone is driving on A roads and the motorway (I feel like a speed demon travelling at an indicated 80-85 these days). Again if everyone is driving like Miss Daisy wont that hugely decrease the amount of fuel we burn and slash govt income.

You need to factor in the massive increase in the levels of enforcement of the limit and the attitudes of society towards the speed issue which have been twisted by the continuous raving propaganda from the anti speed lobby.The result being that 80-85 mph running speed just isn't worth the risk of the potential points,eventually leading to the inevitable ban that it could result in.Which in my case means just drive around well within the national speed limits so that I can keep my licence for when need it to drive in places out of the country where it's possible to have some fun without risking my licence.The fuel saving is just a bonus which I then use to contribute to those foreign tax regimes when running in single figure or at best mid teens mpg figures.

[Rubin215]

TheLordJohn said:

[quote=Who me ?]Simple - when I got my present car six years ago it was in the second VED band. Since then slowly but surely it's moved up the bands ,as HMG trim the figures to recoup some of the zero losses. This Government hates thiefs ,not because of their actions, but because they hate competition .

You can't honestly say Labour wouldn't have done the same, or worse?
At least we've got a 'Government' who can invest the money we give them and make more, rather than just tax and tax and tax us.

Pahahahahaha!

How is life on Planet Bizarro these days...?

[spaximus]

It is going to be road pricing eventually. The green band wagon was jumped upon without them realising what the end game was. So many people I know who used to have nice cars now treat them as transport. What is the point in having a fast car when everyone is slowing down, when cameras are able to fine you for everything.
We have sleep walked into this and road pricing will be the end result so all the smug bds in electric cars will be shafted just the same as the rest of us.

We have enough money in this country to run everything well, but we chose to waste it on other things. Interestingly how high up the table on giving money to aid we are. Hard to justify in my mind sending money to China, India and others when we could get our manufacturing running and the tax take up from job creation

[XJ Flyer]

turbobloke said:

budgie smuggler said:

TheLordJohn said:

valiant said:

If you look at what much of the rest of Europe is paying in VED, we get away lightly.

It's only a matter of time before there is another re-banding where everyone moves up a band or the Government moves us in line with the European average and has the nasty EU to blame it on.

We pay through the nose - in relative terms. £35billion a year in road based taxes, and £9billion sent on the roads.
There's absolutely zero need to increase road tax, if we just didn't throw away £billions every year on all sorts of ste!
I wouldn't be too bothered if we had a decent network system...

The roads are only a small part of the costs. Look at how much the NHS spends fixing people after crashes, how much the fire and police spend attending accidents stopping drunk drivers etc, the costs of ongoing care for asthma and other pollution related issues etc. it goes on and on. I bet 35 bn doesn't even cover it.

Edit: the estimated cost is 48 bn
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/dec/25/car-p...
[/footnote]

Some time ago a study by Dr David Newbury looked at direct and indirect costs of motoring including the so-called social and environmental costs of accidents and emissions and concluded that UK motorists more than paid their way. In reaching the conclusion that total costs "more than cover the full social and environmental costs of transport, as well as the cost of providing the transport infrastructure", Newbery even included the supposed costs of non-existent manmadeup global warming, which need to be discounted in order to keep reality on board.

Since then, air quality has improved as emissions have been cut, accident rates including fatacs have gone down, while motoring costs including traditional as well as 'green' varieties of taxes and duties have increased. Restrictions on private transport have also increased and road building has stalled. The current situation is even more positive, unless the prejudiced guestimating and double accounting practices of anti-car activists is considered, but this doesn't deserve to be called economics.

Beyond that, the contribution of motoring to the economy and quality of life needs to be added to the equation in a full cost-benefit analysis, as opposed to a motoring payments vs motoring costs analysis. Driving a car has even been found to be beneficial to health compared to using public transport, in a Medical Research Council study that set out to show the opposite. The finding held up after the usual social science fiddlefactoring to 'take into account' the effects of age, social class and income.

These days, particularly in view of how TRL reports have changed over the last 20 years, it's doubtful whether either Newbery or the MRC findings would be given any publicity at all, just as the damning but currently suppressed report into useless and expensive wind turbines is sitting inside DECC while incompetent politicians scrap over whether the truth should be told.

It's all about being ruled by what is effectively a eco infiltrated government regime putting eco policies into effect without having an electoral mandate to do it.As such they won't let anything like the facts stand in the way of political dogma.

The reality is a more relaxed motoring costs regime and less taxation would actually translate into more taxation income revenue as people would then be able to use their cars more instead of less.

As for the present situation of ever increasing taxation and ever decreasing incomes in real terms it will probably be the government that will eventually have to blink first unless they want to go down the route of eventual total economic suicide for the country.

Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 26th December 16:59

[carl_w]

Tannedbaldhead said:

Eventually I park up my work's Fiesta van in the office car-park. It used to be a car till company policy changed and the commute to and from home to the office became classed as personal mileage charged at 15p per mile.

HMRC has always classed home to work as personal mileage. The only ways around it are (1) declaration of your home as your base location, or (2) always visiting clients as the first trip of the day. Fact is (and always has been) that many people have to commute to work and can't recharge it. If you've been able to do so until now then count yourself lucky.

[nightflight]

I don't mind driving at the speed limit most of the time, and set my cruise control to the appropriate speed. What is bloody annoying, is the number of people who insist on driving below the limit. Why is it always a bloody Honda Jazz holding everybody up?