XF-S or BMW 640d Gran Coupe?
Discussion
k up
mph said:
fatboy b said:
No brainer for me. BMW haven't made a good looking car in years.
I agree and I've got one !They also have difficulty in making a car that rides well on UK roads.
Go for the Jag.
Can't agree with the comments on the looks as I don't think there's anything wrong with how my (current shape) M6 looks. The new 6 series is a classic good looking 3-box coupe....but when all's said and done, looks are subjective.
I definitely do agree with the comment on the ride quality. This isn't something that's typically a priority for me but I have to say that all the Jags I've had (XFR, XKR and XKR-S) have all ridden sublimely and much better than the BMW equivalent. As such, they're more enjoyable on our roads.
Looks aside, here's a few more of my hopefully balanced thoughts on how these two compare in my experience (having had an XF-S as a courtesy car for a month but with only a relatively short drive in a 640d):
- The BMW has the better engine - it's quieter, more economical in the real world and faster. The 40d engine is superb.
- The BMW is more refined (wind noise in particular is more noticeable in the XF), has better ultra-high speed stability (i.e. above 130mph, so irrelevant in the UK) and it's built to a higher standard
- As stated above, the Jag rides monumentally better but is also better handling and more feelsome. It the more fun steer of the two if that matters to you
- The Jag feels a lot lighter, despite their quoted curb weights being similar
- The Jag is much more spacious in the rear (although a there's nothing wrong with the space on the front of the 6 series) and generally the Jag is the more practical car
- Service from Jag dealers is typically better / more personal than BMW, although I guess this is location dependent
In summary,
In the Jag's favour:
- All aspects of dynamics
- Space/practicality
- Dealer experience
In the BMW's favour:
- Engine
- Refinement
- Quality
Finally, if you can stretch your budget (slightly), have you considered a SWB XJ diesel? I think these out drive the XF and also look a bit more special / exclusive. They also close the gap on the 6 series in terms of refinement and build quality. I'm sure there's some equally good deals on these and size / price-point wise, they're more similar to the 6 series than the XF.
I definitely do agree with the comment on the ride quality. This isn't something that's typically a priority for me but I have to say that all the Jags I've had (XFR, XKR and XKR-S) have all ridden sublimely and much better than the BMW equivalent. As such, they're more enjoyable on our roads.
Looks aside, here's a few more of my hopefully balanced thoughts on how these two compare in my experience (having had an XF-S as a courtesy car for a month but with only a relatively short drive in a 640d):
- The BMW has the better engine - it's quieter, more economical in the real world and faster. The 40d engine is superb.
- The BMW is more refined (wind noise in particular is more noticeable in the XF), has better ultra-high speed stability (i.e. above 130mph, so irrelevant in the UK) and it's built to a higher standard
- As stated above, the Jag rides monumentally better but is also better handling and more feelsome. It the more fun steer of the two if that matters to you
- The Jag feels a lot lighter, despite their quoted curb weights being similar
- The Jag is much more spacious in the rear (although a there's nothing wrong with the space on the front of the 6 series) and generally the Jag is the more practical car
- Service from Jag dealers is typically better / more personal than BMW, although I guess this is location dependent
In summary,
In the Jag's favour:
- All aspects of dynamics
- Space/practicality
- Dealer experience
In the BMW's favour:
- Engine
- Refinement
- Quality
Finally, if you can stretch your budget (slightly), have you considered a SWB XJ diesel? I think these out drive the XF and also look a bit more special / exclusive. They also close the gap on the 6 series in terms of refinement and build quality. I'm sure there's some equally good deals on these and size / price-point wise, they're more similar to the 6 series than the XF.
Edited by Palmball on Monday 30th December 00:17
I wouldn't put quality under BMW. They've played a cunning game to ensure the perceived quality is there, but it's not. The Jag is better IMO. I lost count the amount of times my BMWs went back to the dealers for rattles. The Jag has been in twice in 25k miles for minor rattles. My M3 had a new parcel shelf, new door cards, top dashboard out to replace rattling heater control linkages. All before it had done 8k!
Edited by fatboy b on Monday 30th December 10:22
You're probably right if comparing a 3 series - much like your's, both my previous M3's had constant niggles (mainly rattles).
The 6 series is in a different league though, both in terms of construction (it feels very solid on the road) and material quality. Touch wood, nothing has broken on mine yet (there is time!). As we're comparing 6 series to XF, the BMW simply feels made to higher price point (which you'd expect because it is a more expensive car). There was nothing fundamentally wrong with my previous XFR, but it did have more trim noises than it should have done, although I have to admit it was a pre-facelift and they have probably improved since then.
Jeez, I'm coming across a right BMW fanboy which really isn't the case - if you read my other thread on Jaguar deals, I'm actually keen to get back into a Jag! But the fact is, theres a lot of good cars and strong competition out there.
The 6 series is in a different league though, both in terms of construction (it feels very solid on the road) and material quality. Touch wood, nothing has broken on mine yet (there is time!). As we're comparing 6 series to XF, the BMW simply feels made to higher price point (which you'd expect because it is a more expensive car). There was nothing fundamentally wrong with my previous XFR, but it did have more trim noises than it should have done, although I have to admit it was a pre-facelift and they have probably improved since then.
Jeez, I'm coming across a right BMW fanboy which really isn't the case - if you read my other thread on Jaguar deals, I'm actually keen to get back into a Jag! But the fact is, theres a lot of good cars and strong competition out there.
Edited by Palmball on Monday 30th December 18:53
Palmball,
Hope you don't mind me asking a question, as you seem to have had your share of very nice cars....M3...XFR...XKRS...C63AMG....SLS....M6....probably some others...plus have negotiated some very good deals.!!
What car have you enjoyed the most?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your heart?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your wallet in mind?
hope you don't mind me asking
cheers steve
Hope you don't mind me asking a question, as you seem to have had your share of very nice cars....M3...XFR...XKRS...C63AMG....SLS....M6....probably some others...plus have negotiated some very good deals.!!
What car have you enjoyed the most?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your heart?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your wallet in mind?
hope you don't mind me asking
cheers steve
comrie said:
Palmball,
Hope you don't mind me asking a question, as you seem to have had your share of very nice cars....M3...XFR...XKRS...C63AMG....SLS....M6....probably some others...plus have negotiated some very good deals.!!
What car have you enjoyed the most?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your heart?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your wallet in mind?
hope you don't mind me asking
cheers steve
Thanks Steve - the deals I negotiate are a prerequisite to being able to change so often! If I didn't get a deal, I couldn't afford to change so often but even I think that I should be doing better on some of the deals Hope you don't mind me asking a question, as you seem to have had your share of very nice cars....M3...XFR...XKRS...C63AMG....SLS....M6....probably some others...plus have negotiated some very good deals.!!
What car have you enjoyed the most?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your heart?
What car would you have again if any ...if you chose with your wallet in mind?
hope you don't mind me asking
cheers steve
Its a hard question as to which car I prefer, because they've all been good in so many ways. I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to experience this range of cars so heres my quick thoughts....
Porsche 997.2 Turbo was the most technically capable car I've had, and the fastest real world car of the lot (not the most powerful, but you could literally use 100% of it's power should you so wish!). But it was almost too good to enjoy at reasonable speeds (a bit like the M6) and I also never liked the way it looked so I never felt attached to it in any way.
The SLS was a dream car but ultimately a bit disappointing - it was good but not the best car I've had in terms of dynamics or performance, and it spent too much time in the dealer for creaks and rattles. I was surprised how poorly made it appeared to be. It sounded fabulous but coming straight out of the XKR-S into this car, a little one-dimensional to the Jag's massive range of aural qualities! Gearbox was sh!te too, until I had it upgraded at AMG in Germany (just before I sold it doh!), after which it was less sh!te. I also couldn't use it for work (it was simply too flash) and I felt a bit of a knob getting out of those doors all the time. They say never meet your hero's - whilst I'm glad I had it, I probably wouldn't buy one again.
Both M3's were great fun - probably the most fun cars I've had, if far from the quickest or most 'special'. The C63's were better everyday road cars than the M3's, much faster but ultimately less fun.
In comparison to everything else, the Maserati Grantursimo should have been the most exotic but in reality it was sh!t and also spent too much time in the dealer due to so much breaking on it. I swapped it for my 2nd M3 DCT which was the much better car, despite everyone think I'd gone bankrupt selling a Maser for a 3-series!
XFR - I guess I need to be careful what I say here and, much like the C63's, it was an exceptionally good road car. But it was ultimately not as much fun as other cars I've had because, something it shares with the M6, it was almost a bit too detached. However, it was my introduction to Jags....
Which led onto the XKR - loved it, brilliant car. Can't believe I'd never tried one before (although I hated the seats in them until they launched the 'Performance' seats which, together with the facelift, made it a much more appealing proposition). It felt more like a proper sports car after the XFR and the saloon-based cars that I'd had immediately previous, but was also great everyday and looked fantastic. But unfortunately, after buying one brand new, it went wrong far too often and spent 2 of it's first 8 months in the dealer.
I ended up getting an exchange (plus a small contribution from me) for an XKR-S which was very similar to the first XKR (that had the Dynamic Pack meaning it was an XKR-S in all but name and 40bhp). But it was much wilder looking, which I liked and it shared all the good things of my first XKR and this one never went wrong! THIS was probably my favourite car of all for it's great combination of performance, refinement, dynamics, sound and overall fun factor. Despite a claims of 550bhp, it wasn't as fast as the Porsche or M6 but the sound and added interaction more than made up for that. I should never have sold it for the SLS....but thats easy to say now.
And the M6....a real tough one because it's probably the most 'perfect' car I've had. Best built, most refined, best equipped (it's got one hell of a spec on it), most stable, one of the best looking, best interior ambience, best technology and the fastest (it has the Competition pack so has nearly 600bhp....some say they have more and BMW under-rate them. Whatever, once on a roll, it's more accelerative than even the Porsche). But it's almost too good, like BMW have engineered-out every imperfection so, whilst it's very good at everything, theres little sensation or feel. It also doesn't sound great after the XKR-S and SLS....theres nothing actually wrong with the sound but it's unfortunately being compared to some of the best sounding cars you can buy.
Hence I'm back looking at Jag's! I am tempted to buy my XKR-S back (it's for sale again at one of the North East Jag dealers) but on reflection, I don't think I'd go back to a current XK because I'd miss too many aspects of the M6 - indeed, such is it's capability it'll be a very hard car to replace as an everyday car. However, the F-Type appears to be that bit more technologically advanced and more of a proper sports car but it's got to be a coupe so I wait with excitement for the F-Type R Coupe
As for wallet friendly?
Well, the pain for me is depreciation rather than other running costs so, with that in mind, the Porsche was the most satisfying. In the 5 months I had it, it cost me the equivalent of £500/month...for what was a £100k car! If I'd bought new, it would've been a disaster but I didn't, and thats the benefit of buying a 9-month old example of a desirable car from one of the worlds most respected brands.
My 2nd M3 wasn't bad - it was beginning to fade by the time I bought it so I got an incredible deal on an ex-demo. Spec'd to £58k, I paid £43k. And traded it in 4 months later (against the XFR) for just £900 less.
And oddly enough, my very first M6 (the previous ugly shape) which I bought at 24 months old for £36k at the bottom of the market in 2008 was sold 4 months later for £38k. That was pure luck, buying when the financial world had ended and selling when everyone realised it hadn't! So I guess that makes my first BMW M6 the most financially successful buy I've had....and I'll bet you'll never hear that about an M6 again!
Edited by Palmball on Monday 30th December 22:20
Many thanks Palmball for taking the time to describe your experiences of the various cars you have had ...its greatly appreciated.
I'm in the position at the moment of mulling over an F-type also but although the v8s would be my first choice...i think i would have problems using all that available power and torque.......something you highlighted regarding the M6.
I am running a 2013 c63amg coupe at the moment...its a car that i got an excellent deal on and am very happy with but am finding all the available power difficult to release in real world driving.
That's why i may consider the V6 or V6S F-type.....there performance maybe more usable in the real world but what i think is the crux of the problem with the F-Type; it's just too darn expensive. High sticker price means huge depreciation which means lousy residuals which means crippling lease/PCP deals.
Mercedes along with Bmw's recent realistic pricing backed up with solid residuals mean they clean up in most comparisons like this and make some deals a no brainer........the offers of deals i have received from dealers on new M5 or M6 are just mental....but these cars are just too accomplished ?
Hopefully Jaguar with the imminent new underwriters will be more competitive with regards to there German cousins because at the moment Mercedes and Bmw have the £70000+ market pretty well covered regarding finance and residuals....time to look at the new M4 coupe perhaps?
Cheers Steve
ps.....original poster...sorry for hi-jacking your thread
I'm in the position at the moment of mulling over an F-type also but although the v8s would be my first choice...i think i would have problems using all that available power and torque.......something you highlighted regarding the M6.
I am running a 2013 c63amg coupe at the moment...its a car that i got an excellent deal on and am very happy with but am finding all the available power difficult to release in real world driving.
That's why i may consider the V6 or V6S F-type.....there performance maybe more usable in the real world but what i think is the crux of the problem with the F-Type; it's just too darn expensive. High sticker price means huge depreciation which means lousy residuals which means crippling lease/PCP deals.
Mercedes along with Bmw's recent realistic pricing backed up with solid residuals mean they clean up in most comparisons like this and make some deals a no brainer........the offers of deals i have received from dealers on new M5 or M6 are just mental....but these cars are just too accomplished ?
Hopefully Jaguar with the imminent new underwriters will be more competitive with regards to there German cousins because at the moment Mercedes and Bmw have the £70000+ market pretty well covered regarding finance and residuals....time to look at the new M4 coupe perhaps?
Cheers Steve
ps.....original poster...sorry for hi-jacking your thread
Totally agree on the finance piece Steve - Jag are way off the pace which makes their products less attainable, not helped by the F-Type in particular being overpriced. And overpriced it is, because if it wasn't the lease/PCP deals would be more in line with BMW/Merc.
I'm watching the imminent new finance deals on Jaguar with baited breath.
And this brings us neatly back on-topic.....the strength of the BMW finance proposition is likely to be the reason why the OP is able to compare an XF (a 5-series rival) with a BMW that is effectively a class and price-point higher?
I know personally that my budget is typically around the £70k mark (as you can see by most of the cars I've had) and certainly not the £118k that I'd have needed to buy my M6 at it's list price. But BMW's 'contributions' and strong finance packages made the M6 a similar overall cost to a car within my £70k budget - indeed, it doesn't cost me much more than my first C63!
I'm watching the imminent new finance deals on Jaguar with baited breath.
And this brings us neatly back on-topic.....the strength of the BMW finance proposition is likely to be the reason why the OP is able to compare an XF (a 5-series rival) with a BMW that is effectively a class and price-point higher?
I know personally that my budget is typically around the £70k mark (as you can see by most of the cars I've had) and certainly not the £118k that I'd have needed to buy my M6 at it's list price. But BMW's 'contributions' and strong finance packages made the M6 a similar overall cost to a car within my £70k budget - indeed, it doesn't cost me much more than my first C63!
Hopefully Jaguar will pull the rabbit from the hat and setup some attractive deals......but i wouldn't hold your breath.
Is it that other large marques cant compete with Mercedes and Bmw or just wont !!
Enquired regarding a new 2014 Nissan GTR.....price around £75k....no discount available....no dealer contribution...finance at 10.99 apr.......residual after 3 years....£32k......crap deal
Have they looked at what the German marques are offering......do they want to be slightly competitive and make people think outside of the German box?.......its not just Nissan though......Audi and there R8 although better are still a long way of.....you may get a dealer contribution if a promotion is on with a good apr and residual...but getting a discount as well would be very very difficult....
they way i will approach the f-type is hopefully jaguar will have some attractive offers and residuals.....if not i will want an excellent discount of more than 10%...nearer 15% to help make the deal more attractive to me and at least slightly similar to what the big Germans are offering.......some may say im living in cuckoo land but these discounts have been done...Palmballs M6 as an example....if its not attainable i wont buy......simples
who knows
steve
Is it that other large marques cant compete with Mercedes and Bmw or just wont !!
Enquired regarding a new 2014 Nissan GTR.....price around £75k....no discount available....no dealer contribution...finance at 10.99 apr.......residual after 3 years....£32k......crap deal
Have they looked at what the German marques are offering......do they want to be slightly competitive and make people think outside of the German box?.......its not just Nissan though......Audi and there R8 although better are still a long way of.....you may get a dealer contribution if a promotion is on with a good apr and residual...but getting a discount as well would be very very difficult....
they way i will approach the f-type is hopefully jaguar will have some attractive offers and residuals.....if not i will want an excellent discount of more than 10%...nearer 15% to help make the deal more attractive to me and at least slightly similar to what the big Germans are offering.......some may say im living in cuckoo land but these discounts have been done...Palmballs M6 as an example....if its not attainable i wont buy......simples
who knows
steve
comrie said:
Enquired regarding a new 2014 Nissan GTR.....price around £75k....no discount available....no dealer contribution...finance at 10.99 apr.......residual after 3 years....£32k......crap deal
Precisely, and that is exactly why I am comparing the XF (albeit a top line, 3.0S, Portfolio, with all the options) with a car which reason should tell me I can't afford to run as a DD. Ignore the fact that the GC looks the business (unlike the Panamera, CLS and XJ, imho), ignore the fact that it has a stunning interior which looks and feels £100k plus, if I approach a Glasgow Jaguar dealer I am going to get next to no discount and a hefty APR which will make up a large chunk of the total price of the car. By contrast I have been offered a brilliant deal for a new car to my precise specification at a well known BMW dealership just south of here. Until Jaguar can match this kind of thing they are not at the races however good the cars undoubtedly are. If BMW are trying to buy loyalty, they have succeeded in my case. cardigankid said:
Precisely, and that is exactly why I am comparing the XF (albeit a top line, 3.0S, Portfolio, with all the options) with a car which reason should tell me I can't afford to run as a DD. Ignore the fact that the GC looks the business (unlike the Panamera, CLS and XJ, imho), ignore the fact that it has a stunning interior which looks and feels £100k plus, if I approach a Glasgow Jaguar dealer I am going to get next to no discount and a hefty APR which will make up a large chunk of the total price of the car. By contrast I have been offered a brilliant deal for a new car to my precise specification at a well known BMW dealership just south of here. Until Jaguar can match this kind of thing they are not at the races however good the cars undoubtedly are. If BMW are trying to buy loyalty, they have succeeded in my case.
You have hit the nail on the head....these other marques must try to compete as they are loosing out big time!!Getting a new car to me personally must be a pleasurable experience but the gloss is definitely taken off when although you get the car you wanted you are fully aware that a rival marque could offer a similar car of similar quality from there stable at not just a small discount but in some cases a massive discount....it just spoils the experience.
How can Bmw offer me a £100k car that would cost less monthly than a £60k Jaguar or a £75k Nissan?
I would not be surprised if you took the stonking Bmw M6 deal that Palmball achieved.... could possibly cost less monthly or not far off it..... than any of the F-type deals at the moment......that was a £118k car....madness
I don't mind paying a little extra to get the car i want but i expect a bit of come and go with the dealers and they should be fully aware of what there competitors are offering and at least trying to get near to it.
If you don't get the deal you want walk......we have at least two big German marques who at the moment are very happy to give some discount...give a dealer contribution and offer a reasonable %apr.......they wouldn't be doing it if they weren't making money as a whole from there cheapest to most expensive models.....the cheaper models may help supplement the big discounts on the more expensive models.....but they are still making profit
steve
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