944 - which model
Discussion
thinking about getting a 944 2.5, it will be my first performance car (relative to my current cinq sport anyway!)
just a few questions...
1) Is this going to be a quick car (quick enough to keep my interest for a good few years), or am I going to wish fairly soon that I bought an S, S2 or a Turbo.
2) When viewing a car, are there any particular points that I should look at (e.g. typical points of rust) or ask about (engine servicing etc.)
3) At the time of the dash change, were there any other updates? I am looking for a car with as few electronics and as little weight as possible. Any reasons to go for the oval dash model (or otherwise)?
4) If I get a 944 lux (2.5) ideally I want to spend about £2000 pounds, maybe up to £2500. I don't mind doing a bit of work on it (I am currently building a kit car so can do a little something hopefully). Can you get a decent model for this price or should I wait and save up to spend a bit more? If I do wait and save up, at what price should I start to consider the S2 and Turbo (or even the S) as (tidy) alternatives?
Thanks in advance
john
just a few questions...
1) Is this going to be a quick car (quick enough to keep my interest for a good few years), or am I going to wish fairly soon that I bought an S, S2 or a Turbo.
2) When viewing a car, are there any particular points that I should look at (e.g. typical points of rust) or ask about (engine servicing etc.)
3) At the time of the dash change, were there any other updates? I am looking for a car with as few electronics and as little weight as possible. Any reasons to go for the oval dash model (or otherwise)?
4) If I get a 944 lux (2.5) ideally I want to spend about £2000 pounds, maybe up to £2500. I don't mind doing a bit of work on it (I am currently building a kit car so can do a little something hopefully). Can you get a decent model for this price or should I wait and save up to spend a bit more? If I do wait and save up, at what price should I start to consider the S2 and Turbo (or even the S) as (tidy) alternatives?
Thanks in advance
john
I've got an S2 & from what i can make out this & the Turbos are a LOT better in performance terms that the previous modles.
have a look at these sites for more info.
h
ttp://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faq.html
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexdsl/s/asco96/944t/
www.titanic.co.uk/944/
www.hartech.org.uk/guide.htm
have a look at these sites for more info.
h
ttp://www.connact.com/~kgross/FAQ/944faq.html
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/pipexdsl/s/asco96/944t/
www.titanic.co.uk/944/
www.hartech.org.uk/guide.htm
i bought a 924S in the spring for about £2k, my first porsche, i also looked at a few 944 but went for the 924S (basically a slimmer 944 lux).
great value for money with reasonable performance, sure the 944 S, 2.7 and S2 will be quicker than a lux but i don't think you will be disappointed. just try to find the best condition one you can on the budget, plenty of them about, happy hunting.
great value for money with reasonable performance, sure the 944 S, 2.7 and S2 will be quicker than a lux but i don't think you will be disappointed. just try to find the best condition one you can on the budget, plenty of them about, happy hunting.
Totally agree with Ian.
I bought my 924S in September and love it to bits.
Its the same engine as in the 2.5 944 but the 924 body is slightly lighter (and I think better looking!).
If you manage to get a late model 924S or a Le Mans limited edition then you get the full 160bhp as well.
I bought my 924S in September and love it to bits.
Its the same engine as in the 2.5 944 but the 924 body is slightly lighter (and I think better looking!).
If you manage to get a late model 924S or a Le Mans limited edition then you get the full 160bhp as well.
skinny said:
1) Is this going to be a quick car (quick enough to keep my interest for a good few years), or am I going to wish fairly soon that I bought an S, S2 or a Turbo.
2) When viewing a car, are there any particular points that I should look at (e.g. typical points of rust) or ask about (engine servicing etc.)
3) At the time of the dash change, were there any other updates? I am looking for a car with as few electronics and as little weight as possible. Any reasons to go for the oval dash model (or otherwise)?
4) If I get a 944 lux (2.5) ideally I want to spend about £2000 pounds, maybe up to £2500. I don't mind doing a bit of work on it (I am currently building a kit car so can do a little something hopefully). Can you get a decent model for this price or should I wait and save up to spend a bit more? If I do wait and save up, at what price should I start to consider the S2 and Turbo (or even the S) as (tidy) alternatives?
1. It depends on what you're used to. My lux is by no means the fastest car I've had but because it handles so well you only tend to get out dragged from the lights and not on the back roads. You probably will want a faster one but the lux is a very fine car. I would probably replace mine with an s2 when I get bored of it but wouldn't swap for a turbo as I don't like turbos (generally, haven't driven a 944 turbo).
2. Check for accident damage and rust. Mine is 20 years old and has no rust because, presumably, it has never been repaired and the body shell is galvanised. Any bodywork repairs will probably be pretty expensive. Red cars fade much more badly than other colours, especially repaired ones, I'd avoid them like the plague.
My car doesn't have a FSH but if you're of a nervous disposition it would be a good idea. The work I've done on mine includes...
Rebushing the front suspension... check for wear on the inside of the front tyres which can point to this problem. Also check the rear tyres and if they are worn on the inside ask the owner if he rotated/swapped the tyres over (this caught me out, lesson learned). On the early cars the balljoint is rivetted to the wishbone and you can drill out the rivets and fit a bolt on ball joint. It cost me about 100 quid for all the bushes (including for the rollbar) and the 2 balljoints and it took me about a day to do it all.
New shocks... mine was a bit wallowy so changed the shocks. This is dead easy on earlier cars as the front shocks have inserts that you replace. Dismantling mine found them to have more water in than oil and the new (OEM) shocks transformed the car. When you take the shock off mark off the camber cam bolt head with tipex and the reassemble to that mark and then get the camber checked.
My car needs new valve guides or valve stem seals. It's done 96k miles and the car is old so it's not that surprising. The symptoms are oil smoke on startup and when decelerating using engine braking in a lower gear as the engine suck oil past the valve seals. This could be quite expensive to fix if you don't do it yourself as I plan to (when I can be *rsed).
Make sure you have a recent receipt for the cambelt being changed from a dealer or specialist as this means the tension has been checked correctly. The belt is pretty long and I've been told tensioning the belt until you can turn it 1/4 of a turn is not safe.
Clutches are a pretty complicated and expensive job so if you have a receipt for one you're laughing.
3. I like the round dials and the only downside to this model that I have found is that the windscreen wipers are on the wrong side if you see what I mean as they were design for LHD. Later cars have them on the other side I believe.
Earlier cars don't have rear seat belts which may or may not be important to you.
Not all the earlier cars have power steering.
4. I paid 3000 for mine last year and it's in pretty good nick. I'd say you could get a good one for 2500. Equally you could get a dog for 4000 though.
Good luck,
Mark
>> Edited by dern on Friday 12th November 13:02
I would stretch to a 944S2. Try Henry F's place in Uxbridge.
It's styled on the turbo and almost matches it for performance but cheaper to run.
I bought my 944S2 nearly 4 years ago for £7,500 admitedly as a weekend toy. It's been v. reliable and (fairly) cheap to run.
It's got all the performance and handling you can sensibly use on the public highway. Obviously there are more modern faster cars etc. but unless you plan to race every to$$er who wants to beat you from the lights/drive silly speeds down A roads etc.performance wo'nt.really be an issue.
Get hold of the 2 monthly Porsche magazines / their back numbers for buyers guides/ spare parts costs etc.
It's styled on the turbo and almost matches it for performance but cheaper to run.
I bought my 944S2 nearly 4 years ago for £7,500 admitedly as a weekend toy. It's been v. reliable and (fairly) cheap to run.
It's got all the performance and handling you can sensibly use on the public highway. Obviously there are more modern faster cars etc. but unless you plan to race every to$$er who wants to beat you from the lights/drive silly speeds down A roads etc.performance wo'nt.really be an issue.
Get hold of the 2 monthly Porsche magazines / their back numbers for buyers guides/ spare parts costs etc.
thanks for all your advice, esp the things to look out for. will keep an eye open for a 924s too, didn't realise it was the same engine.
Basically the reason i asked about whether i should try and get an s2 / turbo instead of a 2.5 is that i will have to double my funds for one of those and was just wondering if it was worth it... i know of the amazing handling of a well sorted 924 / 944 and that's as important to me as how quick the car is - actually i am more interested in a-road driving than beating everyone away from the lights. i think my mind's made up - i am itching to get something now. In any case, it's going to be in a different league to my current car!
>> Edited by skinny on Friday 12th November 14:03
Basically the reason i asked about whether i should try and get an s2 / turbo instead of a 2.5 is that i will have to double my funds for one of those and was just wondering if it was worth it... i know of the amazing handling of a well sorted 924 / 944 and that's as important to me as how quick the car is - actually i am more interested in a-road driving than beating everyone away from the lights. i think my mind's made up - i am itching to get something now. In any case, it's going to be in a different league to my current car!
>> Edited by skinny on Friday 12th November 14:03
Treat 2.5 2.5S and 2.7 as the same car, 3.0 S2 and turbo offer improved performance but at a price. I would buy an oval dash car, the earlier cars feel a lot more dated and being older I suppose there is more chance of buying a bad car. That said given the age and price of the cars now I`m afraid you have to assume most of the cars out there are pups unless you discover otherwise so if you find a good car grab hold with both hands.
In addition to current stock on the site we have got a pre-oval dash 944 coming in either this weekend or next week as a p/x which will be a good price-range 944.
I hear what you say re: the 924S but they just don`t drive as well as a 944, a 1987 924S and a 1987 944 are different cars. Certainly on re-sale you have to do a lot of peddaling to sell the 924S "Oh yea I`ve heard of them, aren`t they the Volkswagen one with the van engine?" The 944 has more kerb appeal to the man in the street.
All that said given the age it will come down to an individual car.
Henry
In addition to current stock on the site we have got a pre-oval dash 944 coming in either this weekend or next week as a p/x which will be a good price-range 944.
I hear what you say re: the 924S but they just don`t drive as well as a 944, a 1987 924S and a 1987 944 are different cars. Certainly on re-sale you have to do a lot of peddaling to sell the 924S "Oh yea I`ve heard of them, aren`t they the Volkswagen one with the van engine?" The 944 has more kerb appeal to the man in the street.
All that said given the age it will come down to an individual car.
Henry
Do not treat the S the same
Cam belt
If this goes, valves touch pistons. Could easily be a new engine. You want to see recent evidence of this done, or else budget for one. (they should be changed 40,000 miles or 3 years). While this is done, you might as well have the water pump done as well. Driven from the cam belt, if this goes it will cause the same amount of damage. Lasts about 90,000 miles
On the 16 valve S and S2 the inlet cam is driven via a chain from the exhaust cam. The chain sits between cylinders 2 and 3, approx. halfway along the length of the engine. The chain is tensioned via a hydraulic tensioner, which uses 2 plastic (nylon) slippers to keep the chain taught. If the slipper is old, like any plastic it can become brittle. And if a piece snaps off then....
Some people only replace the top slipper, which can be bought separately from Berlyn services, but there's also a second slipper on the bottom of the tensioner which cannot be bought separately. Both slippers wear at roughly the same rate, so I prefer to change the whole tensioner assembly, including both slippers. I think it's around £250 for the unit, plus labour of course.
The cam belt has many tensioners and rollers. It is worth getting these changed as well- if they seize, then...
The above are expensive to do, but it gets VERY expensive if they are not done.
Cam belt
If this goes, valves touch pistons. Could easily be a new engine. You want to see recent evidence of this done, or else budget for one. (they should be changed 40,000 miles or 3 years). While this is done, you might as well have the water pump done as well. Driven from the cam belt, if this goes it will cause the same amount of damage. Lasts about 90,000 miles
On the 16 valve S and S2 the inlet cam is driven via a chain from the exhaust cam. The chain sits between cylinders 2 and 3, approx. halfway along the length of the engine. The chain is tensioned via a hydraulic tensioner, which uses 2 plastic (nylon) slippers to keep the chain taught. If the slipper is old, like any plastic it can become brittle. And if a piece snaps off then....
Some people only replace the top slipper, which can be bought separately from Berlyn services, but there's also a second slipper on the bottom of the tensioner which cannot be bought separately. Both slippers wear at roughly the same rate, so I prefer to change the whole tensioner assembly, including both slippers. I think it's around £250 for the unit, plus labour of course.
The cam belt has many tensioners and rollers. It is worth getting these changed as well- if they seize, then...
The above are expensive to do, but it gets VERY expensive if they are not done.
skinny said:I've just noticed that you're in Oxford, if you want to come over and have a look at mine (near Newbury) I'd be happy to take you out for a spin if that would help. I can't let you drive it I'm afraid because of insurance reasons but it may help your decision and give you something to compare other cars against.
Basically the reason i asked about whether i should try and get an s2 / turbo instead of a 2.5 is that i will have to double my funds for one of those and was just wondering if it was worth it... i know of the amazing handling of a well sorted 924 / 944 and that's as important to me as how quick the car is - actually i am more interested in a-road driving than beating everyone away from the lights. i think my mind's made up - i am itching to get something now. In any case, it's going to be in a different league to my current car!
Mine's an 85 lux in mullet gold (see profile).
I'm not trying to sell it by the way, I like it too much
Mail me through my profile if you want to pop over and I'll email you my phone number. I'm free most of tomorrow but not on sunday.
All the best,
Mark
I' was looking as an S2 to replace my 924 Turbo, as the weekend toy.
After a run in an S2, IMHO I think the 924 T would be either on it's boot or (from a seat of the pants dyno) in front of it.
On the other hand a track stripped 944 2.5 with up rated suspension and sticky rubber was much better on a track day.
After a run in an S2, IMHO I think the 924 T would be either on it's boot or (from a seat of the pants dyno) in front of it.
On the other hand a track stripped 944 2.5 with up rated suspension and sticky rubber was much better on a track day.
All i can say is save a bit more and get an S2. I think you could get a decent one around the £5k-6k mark. Its in a different class. The turbo is a step up again, dont let anyone tell you its not much quicker then the S2 it is. But it comes at a price, cost to buy and run no question. S2 is a very nice car. Whateve you go for, make sure its the best one you can afford, the parts prices can hurt if something big goes.
You can pick up 944s very cheaply, but the budget range you are talking about is at the bottom of the scale so be prepared to look at a lot before you find a good one. There are lots of dogs out there, and a cheap Porsche can cost you thousands if a few major items need replacing.
I would say with your budget (or even double it) to avoid S2s or Turbos, but get a good Lux for between 2k and 3k and allow a couple of 1000 to get it in perfect condition.
I would say with your budget (or even double it) to avoid S2s or Turbos, but get a good Lux for between 2k and 3k and allow a couple of 1000 to get it in perfect condition.
thanks for all your advice. I got a book about the 944 / 924 and it didn't really explain the differences between the 944 and the 924s so thanks for that. I think you're right, the S2 / turbo is way out of my league at the mo, and the 2.5 will be enough for me - just have to find an ok one to give me a year or two's motoring 
I can't wait to double my budget to get an S2 or Turbo and don't fancy the maintenance bills of the S!
dern, sorry, didn't check the site so didn't get back to you - thanks for the offer tho, would like to take you up on it sometime, but i'm not sure when i'm next free.
cheers
>> Edited by skinny on Monday 15th November 10:49
I can't wait to double my budget to get an S2 or Turbo and don't fancy the maintenance bills of the S! dern, sorry, didn't check the site so didn't get back to you - thanks for the offer tho, would like to take you up on it sometime, but i'm not sure when i'm next free.
cheers
>> Edited by skinny on Monday 15th November 10:49
iguana said:
What you need is a 944 buyers guide
*Bing*
www.pistonheads.com/porsche/default.asp?storyId=6090
Iggy -don't you mean *Bling* ???
Mel
PS Read GTPP 944 long term test before you buy....
Melv said:
What you need is a 944 buyers guide
*Bing*
<a href="http://www.pistonheads.com/porsche/default.asp?storyId=6090">www.pistonheads.com/porsche/default.asp?storyId=6090</a>
Iggy -don't you mean *Bling* ???
Mel
PS Read GTPP 944 long term test before you buy....
I saw that too. What a shame.... There cannot be very many good 944 Turbo's left now, especially the '89 ones with adjustable suspension, LSD etc. I may havew to get mine into good, rather then "well loved" condition
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