'cooking' model good enough?
Discussion
Was pondering this today. The bottom and mid-range models of normal hatchbacks and saloons are now so competent is there still the same desire for the hot versions? Another way to look at it - Are the hot versions worth the extra money?
Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
Another example is the current 168bhp BMW 1-series. The M135i gets all the press (and rightly so - it's a great car), but is the 118i enough to fun with in the real world at a large saving? second hand 118i's can be had for around £15-16k against £25k-26k for a similar age M135i.
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Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
Another example is the current 168bhp BMW 1-series. The M135i gets all the press (and rightly so - it's a great car), but is the 118i enough to fun with in the real world at a large saving? second hand 118i's can be had for around £15-16k against £25k-26k for a similar age M135i.
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Edited by Ecosseven on Saturday 4th January 19:54
Ecosseven said:
Was pondering this today. The bottom and mid-range models of normal hatchbacks and saloons are now so competent is there still the same desire for the hot versions? Another way to look at it - Are the hot versions worth the extra money?
Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
Which by todays standards is the same as a 2.0L Oil Burner Rep Mobile and therefore not even moderately warm.Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
Pablo68 said:
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
Very, very few hot hatches manage that. It's hard with a FWD car on normal road tyres. 0-60 in 7.4 seconds doesn't suddenly get slower because other cars are faster - it's quite enough to have fun with and to get you past slower cars on single carriageway roads.
Pablo68 said:
Ecosseven said:
Was pondering this today. The bottom and mid-range models of normal hatchbacks and saloons are now so competent is there still the same desire for the hot versions? Another way to look at it - Are the hot versions worth the extra money?
Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
Which by todays standards is the same as a 2.0L Oil Burner Rep Mobile and therefore not even moderately warm.Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
Ecosseven said:
Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously
Which is true. If you're used to hot hatches of previous years, the cooking models of now are probably enough - if only for a while 
Pablo68 said:
Which by todays standards is the same as a 2.0L Oil Burner Rep Mobile and therefore not even moderately warm.
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
All those Audi R8 V8's and RS4's eh, vaguely hot.To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
I would be of the opinion that a cooking model is perfectly fine, and I agree the main issue is that power in increasing so much nowadays. I only have a lowly 105bhp, but to be honest I can count on one hand the number of times in 18k miles and 18 months how many times I really wished I had more.
...would still love a stonking V8 under the bonnet, but not really for the out and out power as such.
...would still love a stonking V8 under the bonnet, but not really for the out and out power as such.
Pablo68 said:
Which by todays standards is the same as a 2.0L Oil Burner Rep Mobile and therefore not even moderately warm.
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
The OP was on about hatches and saloons. How many hatches do 0-62 in less than 5 seconds? Most hot hatches are around the 6 second mark. So I would class a 0-62 time of 7-8 seconds a warm hatch.To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
Even in saloons you have to be talking big power cars such as RS4/6's, BMW M3/5 etc to be sub 5 seconds.
The problem is they are also competent in every other way, brakes, tyres, suspension, sound proofing etc.
Sometimes underpowered cars are very interesting, but are they too easy, too comfortable, even boring.
Technology and progress in every area could subdue the overall experience. I'd take the M135i. I think Vlad is getting one.
Sometimes underpowered cars are very interesting, but are they too easy, too comfortable, even boring.
Technology and progress in every area could subdue the overall experience. I'd take the M135i. I think Vlad is getting one.
Pablo68 said:
Ecosseven said:
Was pondering this today. The bottom and mid-range models of normal hatchbacks and saloons are now so competent is there still the same desire for the hot versions? Another way to look at it - Are the hot versions worth the extra money?
Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
Which by todays standards is the same as a 2.0L Oil Burner Rep Mobile and therefore not even moderately warm.Warm hatches now have similar performance potential as that offered by hot hatches previously. A good example would be the Seat Leon FR 1.8 petrol - 180bhp, 0-62mph in 7.4 seconds.
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
Urban Sports said:
Is the 118i fitted with the new 8 speeder? If it is then it should be quicker and more efficient.
Yes has the 8 speed - tiptronic only so no wheel paddles, not sure they were an available option. I get about 30mpg for low speed/urban driving and mid 40's for motorway, more fun than an oil burner though.Pablo68 said:
Which by todays standards is the same as a 2.0L Oil Burner Rep Mobile and therefore not even moderately warm.
To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
Fair enough, but I am sure many people (including myself) would regard a car that can hit 60 in 7 or so seconds as pretty fast. To be even considered vaguely hot today I suspect that the 0-62 time needs to be 5.0s or less. Such is progress.
That is about what the fastest cars I drive on a regular basis (Astra 2.2, E46 328i, A4 B7 TDI) do and I think they are more than quick enough for real world driving. I have never felt out of puff in any of them, and never pushed them to the limit on a road.
Obviously track driving is a different story, but I see where OP is coming from.
sjt85 said:
Urban Sports said:
Is the 118i fitted with the new 8 speeder? If it is then it should be quicker and more efficient.
Yes has the 8 speed - tiptronic only so no wheel paddles, not sure they were an available option. I get about 30mpg for low speed/urban driving and mid 40's for motorway, more fun than an oil burner though.Why is the "oil burner" relevant btw?
BorkFactor said:
Fair enough, but I am sure many people (including myself) would regard a car that can hit 60 in 7 or so seconds as pretty fast.
That is about what the fastest cars I drive on a regular basis (Astra 2.2, E46 328i, A4 B7 TDI) do and I think they are more than quick enough for real world driving. I have never felt out of puff in any of them, and never pushed them to the limit on a road.
Obviously track driving is a different story, but I see where OP is coming from.
It is reasonably fast on the road but times (and car technology) move on and 7-8s is 2.0l TDi territory these days. Which would be pretty depressing for anyone in the shiney new "hot" hatch as Mr Coathanger Salesman keeps up with them in their 320D SE/Audi A4 TDi That is about what the fastest cars I drive on a regular basis (Astra 2.2, E46 328i, A4 B7 TDI) do and I think they are more than quick enough for real world driving. I have never felt out of puff in any of them, and never pushed them to the limit on a road.
Obviously track driving is a different story, but I see where OP is coming from.
In answer to the second bit of the OP's question (which he added after I answered)...the 118D would feel much faster in real driving as it is much much more torquey than the 118i. I wouldnt personally consider either as "hot" though. Fun enough but not hot. Wife has a 120D.
Edited by Pablo68 on Saturday 4th January 21:09
Edited by Pablo68 on Saturday 4th January 21:10
Urban Sports said:
sjt85 said:
Urban Sports said:
Is the 118i fitted with the new 8 speeder? If it is then it should be quicker and more efficient.
Yes has the 8 speed - tiptronic only so no wheel paddles, not sure they were an available option. I get about 30mpg for low speed/urban driving and mid 40's for motorway, more fun than an oil burner though.Why is the "oil burner" relevant btw?
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