993TT with some buts...what is it worth?
Discussion
Due to pressure from wife over third child I have a 993TT with 18k miles, which may become available...BUT a few catches....
1. It has been a CAT D write-off (ie all left side panels replaced from side swipe)- I have had it removed from HPI register with a full sign off by Autoline. ie there was only cosmetic damage, nothing wrong with chassis. I was told by Autoline (the claim to be only company able to remove cars of the HPI list) that pre their sign of the car was worth 40% of Book, but after they check car out (£270) (assuming it passes)the car is worth 85% of book.
2. For first five years of life, full service OPC history, then nothing until I have been getting it serviced at OPC (last 8 mnths).
3. In the last 8 months have spent £5k on new exhaust system - Techart, white dials, alloy trim/pedals/door handles and new tyres all round.
The interior is immaculate, paintwork shines as has been stored in garage all its life (as you would expect with only 18k miles)and drives fantastic (I guess I would say that!), but the porsche guys say its one of only a few cars they have seen where the boost gets close to 1.
I paid 38k pre the 5k improvements etc. Am I going to get screwed selling it because of its history even though it drives perfect?
1. It has been a CAT D write-off (ie all left side panels replaced from side swipe)- I have had it removed from HPI register with a full sign off by Autoline. ie there was only cosmetic damage, nothing wrong with chassis. I was told by Autoline (the claim to be only company able to remove cars of the HPI list) that pre their sign of the car was worth 40% of Book, but after they check car out (£270) (assuming it passes)the car is worth 85% of book.
2. For first five years of life, full service OPC history, then nothing until I have been getting it serviced at OPC (last 8 mnths).
3. In the last 8 months have spent £5k on new exhaust system - Techart, white dials, alloy trim/pedals/door handles and new tyres all round.
The interior is immaculate, paintwork shines as has been stored in garage all its life (as you would expect with only 18k miles)and drives fantastic (I guess I would say that!), but the porsche guys say its one of only a few cars they have seen where the boost gets close to 1.
I paid 38k pre the 5k improvements etc. Am I going to get screwed selling it because of its history even though it drives perfect?
I think from prevoius posts that a CAT registered vehicle will expect about 15% less than book price.
Also you mentioned that the first 5 years there was OPC history then nothing until 8 months ago. Do you mean no history at all i.e from independents/non OPC. If thats the case that will probably be a major issue for some aswell.
>> Edited by ronnie993tt on Saturday 13th November 20:35
Also you mentioned that the first 5 years there was OPC history then nothing until 8 months ago. Do you mean no history at all i.e from independents/non OPC. If thats the case that will probably be a major issue for some aswell.
>> Edited by ronnie993tt on Saturday 13th November 20:35
1996
No history at all after 2000, all details lost. I have had car checked over by 9M pre purchase and fully inspected by OPC with absoulutely no issues surfacing re the "missing years".
>> Edited by SherrinR on Sunday 14th November 00:01
>> Edited by SherrinR on Sunday 14th November 00:04
No history at all after 2000, all details lost. I have had car checked over by 9M pre purchase and fully inspected by OPC with absoulutely no issues surfacing re the "missing years".
>> Edited by SherrinR on Sunday 14th November 00:01
>> Edited by SherrinR on Sunday 14th November 00:04
poorcardealer said:
15% is not enough for a damaged repaired vehicle.
Without wanting to sound defensive...
"Category D. Vehicles which fall within D category are vehicles where the cost of repair is less than the value of the vehicle, however for a number of reasons it may not be economically viable to repair the vehicle. This could be for a number of reasons, for example:
1. Vehicles replaced under ‘new for old’ schemes (often at 50% damage) these vehicles are treated as not economical to repair, when repair costs reach half the value of the vehicle.
2. Vehicles which could have been repaired but due to car hire costs the insurer has decided to deal with the claim as beyond economical repair.
3. Vehicles which an insurer has decided to deal with as beyond economical repair so as to avoid a diminution in value claim following repair.
4. Vehicles where the value of the salvage is such that the insurers feel it more appropriate to deal with a claim as a ‘constructive total loss’.
5. Occasionally an insurer will have a client who for a number of reasons is simply refusing to have the vehicle repaired and the insurer will attempt to obtain sufficient for the salvage so as to ‘bridge the gap’ between the value of the vehicle and the repair cost."
Its interesting to note that with my car the accident involved the panels, not engine or chassis, but it was registered, while other porkers can be repaired (from very similar accidents) without any history recorded....
But all that being said I know from my job the market is always right!
So poorcardealer what discount/price should I expect?
>> Edited by SherrinR on Sunday 14th November 18:17
It'd be really interesting to see whether the car comes up on HPI - Since it only costs POORCARDEALER a fiver or so if he has HPI online - give him the chassis number and number plate and let him see - offer to refund the cost of course.
If the car is indeed HPI clear and the repair superb, who's going to know anything different?...but then I believe the main issue is the lack of continuous history....
....what's the bottom book (CAP) on a 993TT with average miles? I'd guess that if you took 15% off that value the car would then seem very cheap (yes, I know your car has covered fewer miles, but there's no history to back that up - I wonder whether Porsche can interrogate the ECU - most log mileage IIRC - but I bet there's a man on ebay who can clock ECUS too!)
If your car came up for sale at sub £30k, I think it'd sell to someone willing to take a risk on its lack of history and the damage it sustained.
If the car is indeed HPI clear and the repair superb, who's going to know anything different?...but then I believe the main issue is the lack of continuous history....
....what's the bottom book (CAP) on a 993TT with average miles? I'd guess that if you took 15% off that value the car would then seem very cheap (yes, I know your car has covered fewer miles, but there's no history to back that up - I wonder whether Porsche can interrogate the ECU - most log mileage IIRC - but I bet there's a man on ebay who can clock ECUS too!)
If your car came up for sale at sub £30k, I think it'd sell to someone willing to take a risk on its lack of history and the damage it sustained.
Without service documents to back up the low miles, it's very hard to take that at face value. What was the mileage stamps in the first 5 years? What makes you believe that is accurate? Any sensible potential buyer would want some sort of proof or need a low price to make up for it. I know I would anyway. That's not to say it 's not a good car though.
Good luck on sale.
Good luck on sale.
I 360'ed + double rolled a LHD 993C2 worth £24,000 at about 7omph in Aug 2002, and this was deemed to cost £36,000 to repair and hence written off. The car was a total mess, not a single panel, roof structure, glass, drive shaft, suspension was in one piece. Interior was a shambles (where did all that dust come from ?) and the chassis was definitely screwed.
Horrible as it is to stomach, logically speaking : If at the time of your cars accident it was not cost effective to repair £40K+ (I.E Cat D) then worse damage must have occurred that what I cite above.
Most people buy performance cars on condition and if all you say is evidence driven then you will be able to sell OK.
Horrible as it is to stomach, logically speaking : If at the time of your cars accident it was not cost effective to repair £40K+ (I.E Cat D) then worse damage must have occurred that what I cite above.
Most people buy performance cars on condition and if all you say is evidence driven then you will be able to sell OK.
There are (or certainly were) 2 companies that inspect vehicles, Autolign and Popplewells. Once inspected the car transfers from the "Vehicle Condition Alert" register, to the "Condition Inspected" register, so it doesn`t actually loose it`s history, people still know the car has been written off.
With regard to the inspection it`s self, the main thing that is checked is the wheel alignment, they also check to make sure the car isn`t a ringer (ie that the car is actually the damaged car repaired rather than a straight car given the damaged car`s identity). Personally I take the the inspection pass with a bit of a pinch of salt, I`ve seen cars that have passed but are very average in their quality of repair.
The main reason a car is written off is that repairing it to insurance standards, ie as new, was too expensive. Pulling out a chassis leg / beating out a kinked floor is cheaper than replacing them. Re: old for new - very unlikely on a car over 1 year old at the time of damage.
The moral: Treat each car with a story on it`s own merits based on what you see with your eyes rather than what the story / paperwork says.
I would have thought a non recorded T4 with partial history in lovely condition ought to make £37 - £40k so you`ll need to price your car based on that. Once again you have to treat each car with a story on it`s own merits once you`ve seen it.
We recently sold a Condition inspected 3.2 cab for £15k which sounds a hell of a price, until you saw the car it was a bit special !
All the best
Henry
With regard to the inspection it`s self, the main thing that is checked is the wheel alignment, they also check to make sure the car isn`t a ringer (ie that the car is actually the damaged car repaired rather than a straight car given the damaged car`s identity). Personally I take the the inspection pass with a bit of a pinch of salt, I`ve seen cars that have passed but are very average in their quality of repair.
The main reason a car is written off is that repairing it to insurance standards, ie as new, was too expensive. Pulling out a chassis leg / beating out a kinked floor is cheaper than replacing them. Re: old for new - very unlikely on a car over 1 year old at the time of damage.
The moral: Treat each car with a story on it`s own merits based on what you see with your eyes rather than what the story / paperwork says.
I would have thought a non recorded T4 with partial history in lovely condition ought to make £37 - £40k so you`ll need to price your car based on that. Once again you have to treat each car with a story on it`s own merits once you`ve seen it.
We recently sold a Condition inspected 3.2 cab for £15k which sounds a hell of a price, until you saw the car it was a bit special !
All the best
Henry
Thanks for all the replies, it appears to sell I may have to take a £15k hit for 6months ownership...maybe this will convince wife we are better off keeping it for my own pleasure!!!
In answer to the questions about the car and its use re the "missing years".... The interior and leather is immaculate, supporting the low miles (18k), I mean there is no wear on the steering wheel (you can feel the grain still) or seats at all, this was pointed out to me by the OPC during my first service.
I have used the car with three different driving instructors at Bruntingthorpe and Heyford Park (I wanted to learn how to drive it properly - still got a long way to go) and all without fail after they have driven it have said it is one of the best 993TT's they had driven in terms of handling and how quickly the turbos kick in. - similar comments from 9m when I had them do the pre-purchase check.
So I feel happy the cars miles are right, but understand that this will be used to beat the price down by smart bargin hunters. Maybe I have to wait for the right guy who drives it and falls in love with the experience of driving it, rather than the lack of suitable past... (sounds like "Pretty Woman")!!
In answer to the questions about the car and its use re the "missing years".... The interior and leather is immaculate, supporting the low miles (18k), I mean there is no wear on the steering wheel (you can feel the grain still) or seats at all, this was pointed out to me by the OPC during my first service.
I have used the car with three different driving instructors at Bruntingthorpe and Heyford Park (I wanted to learn how to drive it properly - still got a long way to go) and all without fail after they have driven it have said it is one of the best 993TT's they had driven in terms of handling and how quickly the turbos kick in. - similar comments from 9m when I had them do the pre-purchase check.
So I feel happy the cars miles are right, but understand that this will be used to beat the price down by smart bargin hunters. Maybe I have to wait for the right guy who drives it and falls in love with the experience of driving it, rather than the lack of suitable past... (sounds like "Pretty Woman")!!
Errr, i hate to be pedantic but i'm not sure you all understand the concept of Cat D (mentioning no names).
I'll give you an example of a car i owned (a TVR Chimaera, no less).
Car is worth 15k.
Car gets damaged (couple of front wheels, wishbones, some minor damage to the fiberglass).
Would cost 7k for a TVR dealer (stealer) to fix.
Total cost to insurer = £7k.
Same car and situation, but car gets sold "as is" for 10k. Insurer adds to this and pays out to the owner the value of the car pre-accident (15k).
Total cost to insurer= £5k.
No we all know insurance companies like taking money and hate giving it... what do you think they'd do?
These values are examples, but i bought a Cat d car that just needed £1000 to put it back on the road in useable condition, whereas it would have needed at least 5k spent at a TVR dealer to bring it back to "factory fresh".
Remembering that you have to have faith in what you're buying if you're going to take it to Vmax at Brunters for example, i'd buy a Cat D car just as readily as i'd buy any other, if the price is right.
IMHO, as ever.
VS
I'll give you an example of a car i owned (a TVR Chimaera, no less).
Car is worth 15k.
Car gets damaged (couple of front wheels, wishbones, some minor damage to the fiberglass).
Would cost 7k for a TVR dealer (stealer) to fix.
Total cost to insurer = £7k.
Same car and situation, but car gets sold "as is" for 10k. Insurer adds to this and pays out to the owner the value of the car pre-accident (15k).
Total cost to insurer= £5k.
No we all know insurance companies like taking money and hate giving it... what do you think they'd do?
These values are examples, but i bought a Cat d car that just needed £1000 to put it back on the road in useable condition, whereas it would have needed at least 5k spent at a TVR dealer to bring it back to "factory fresh".
Remembering that you have to have faith in what you're buying if you're going to take it to Vmax at Brunters for example, i'd buy a Cat D car just as readily as i'd buy any other, if the price is right.
IMHO, as ever.
VS
I agree with you up to a point Verysideways - I bought a damaged repairable (as they used to be called!) put it back on the road and did 100,000 miles in it before selling it to a man in Wembley, who then reported it stolen 2 weeks later with a description to his insurance company that bore no relation to the condition of the car I sold him, but that's another story......
But like you, I viewed it when damaged and was able to judge the severity of the damage. I think I'm correct in saying that this guy didn't buy it in that state, he bought it repaired - without decent photographic proof or/and the assessor's inspection report, it's going to be difficult to prove just how major the damage was. Frankly, on a car that must have been worth at least £50k when damaged, £25k seems a lot of damage to me for a door, front wing and rear wing....even assuming they were replaced and not repaired.
But like you, I viewed it when damaged and was able to judge the severity of the damage. I think I'm correct in saying that this guy didn't buy it in that state, he bought it repaired - without decent photographic proof or/and the assessor's inspection report, it's going to be difficult to prove just how major the damage was. Frankly, on a car that must have been worth at least £50k when damaged, £25k seems a lot of damage to me for a door, front wing and rear wing....even assuming they were replaced and not repaired.
It is unlikely that the insurance company would see back £10k for a damaged car that was £15k undamaged. The insurers tend to work off a blanket figure of so many percent of glasses guide, and it isn`t a very big percentage !
In the good old days big salvage yards would buy all the cars from an insurance company at this fixed percentage then sell them off, usually by auction. In the case of the TVR they would hopefully make some money, it made up for the fire damaged XR3i that was only fit to be melted down again and turned into baked bean cans.
Nothing in life is ever simple, but if the insurance company think they can repair for less than the cost of replacement then that`s what they will do. The insurer won`t go all the way (ie 90-95% of value) though because they know the job usually grows once you start on the repair so they do cut their losses.
It`s also fair to say that often the damage on a car extends beyond the obvious. You may well change the front wing but that tiny crease you missed by the blower motor would have cost the insurance company £15k to correct.
The catagorisation of damage is a bit subjective. There is cross over between Cat C and D. It also amuses me that when ever I get offered write offs they are, (or in the case of condition inspected cars), were, always Cat D`s (supposedly), in the same way as every second hand 15 year old engine I ever bought had always done under 50k miles !!
Buying a car with a story has never bothered me but then I`m grown up enough to know what I`m looking at and, like buying left hand drive, whilst it won`t appeal to everyone it does afford the buyer a chance to get a car that otherwise might have been beyond their reach.
Just so long as you go in with your eyes open and at the very least always do your HPI check on any car you`re looking to buy. We get to see a lot of cars in the course of a year that have hidden stories their owners were oblivious to. In fairness accident damage substantial enough to write a car off will be evident before you check on HPI but there are other less visible pitfalls.
Henry
In the good old days big salvage yards would buy all the cars from an insurance company at this fixed percentage then sell them off, usually by auction. In the case of the TVR they would hopefully make some money, it made up for the fire damaged XR3i that was only fit to be melted down again and turned into baked bean cans.
Nothing in life is ever simple, but if the insurance company think they can repair for less than the cost of replacement then that`s what they will do. The insurer won`t go all the way (ie 90-95% of value) though because they know the job usually grows once you start on the repair so they do cut their losses.
It`s also fair to say that often the damage on a car extends beyond the obvious. You may well change the front wing but that tiny crease you missed by the blower motor would have cost the insurance company £15k to correct.
The catagorisation of damage is a bit subjective. There is cross over between Cat C and D. It also amuses me that when ever I get offered write offs they are, (or in the case of condition inspected cars), were, always Cat D`s (supposedly), in the same way as every second hand 15 year old engine I ever bought had always done under 50k miles !!
Buying a car with a story has never bothered me but then I`m grown up enough to know what I`m looking at and, like buying left hand drive, whilst it won`t appeal to everyone it does afford the buyer a chance to get a car that otherwise might have been beyond their reach.
Just so long as you go in with your eyes open and at the very least always do your HPI check on any car you`re looking to buy. We get to see a lot of cars in the course of a year that have hidden stories their owners were oblivious to. In fairness accident damage substantial enough to write a car off will be evident before you check on HPI but there are other less visible pitfalls.
Henry
aceparts_com said:
£15K hit? Have i missed something? What did you pay for it? Were you not bothered by any 'missing' history?
I paid 38k plus 5k of improvements. While I was looking around I came across other 933 TT between 45-50k for many more miles and poorer condition re interior etc.
I had the car checked by 9m for the problems pre purchase - they knew the car and had in fact replaced one of the turbos (according to them a turbo had siezed as result of overheating from the accident ie engine turned off with no cooling).
But to be honest I bought the car planning to take it back to Australia with me in a couple of years, so I was more concerned about how the car was in terms of condition, handling etc, then its lack of "proper" history...ie I knew I was getting for alot lower price for that reason and I spent over £500 at 9M and autolign making sure the car was in great condition.
However, as we all know, circumstances change and I now thinking of selling it, but I am gutted that according to above posts I have really overpaid. I can't blame 9M or autolign but both companies told me what a great car it was, and how it was a bargin at that price.....
It would be my guess that you've got to price it to stand out and keep people interested beyond the cat d story!
I paid £40K for my '95 36K mile example 14 months ago (with techart exhaut) and guess it's still worth something near that figure.
A little while ago there was a 149,000 mile example up for £35K and that's been sold.
Like all things, if you need to sell quick you have to take a hit of some type.
I paid £40K for my '95 36K mile example 14 months ago (with techart exhaut) and guess it's still worth something near that figure.
A little while ago there was a 149,000 mile example up for £35K and that's been sold.
Like all things, if you need to sell quick you have to take a hit of some type.
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