Reliability. Old vs New
Discussion
I'm not so much looking for anecdotal evidence here. We all know of someone with a 15yr old merc/Volvo/mazda that has never broken down or needed repairs. I'm interested in the facts of reliability, and whether there may be some data to back it up I can look into.
I have always run older cars. Some very old, classic, not so classic, total bangers, all variants of older cars. Rarely have I had a car newer than ten years old although my wife buys newer cars than me, hers tend to be five year old or there about.
My experience with the cars I have had is that age has very very little to do with reliability. A few examples would be my 1983 Mk1 Golf Gti that I owned for 4 years until it's 27th birthday when the gearbox gave in. In the 4 years I had it the car never refused to start or broke down. It needed routine maintenance like any other car but it was a reliable car.
There was an 8 yr old Clio sport that was also reliable, but needed regular maintenance on suspension and engine mounts etc. That was the newest car I've ever owned.
My wife had to have the engine rebuilt in her 5 yr old MX5 and a gearbox re build in a 5 yr old Polo.
I've also had dreadfully unreliable cars that constantly refused to start and broke down, of varying ages.
My point. It seems to me age is not the main factor in reliability. (I'd gladly be proved wrong). But im at a point now where reliability is the MOST important thing in a car. I have not got time for repairs or breakdowns so am considering a newer or new car. Now, Is this going to work. DO brand new cars break down... I'm led to believe they do. Yes, they're under warranty. But that's not much help. It's not the cost of repairs but the inconvenience that I struggle with.
As said I'm not particularly looking for personal stories although please do share. Im looking for hard evidence on breakdown data or maybe warranty claims. Do 3 yr old cars suffer more warranty claims that 1 yr old etc etc.
I have always run older cars. Some very old, classic, not so classic, total bangers, all variants of older cars. Rarely have I had a car newer than ten years old although my wife buys newer cars than me, hers tend to be five year old or there about.
My experience with the cars I have had is that age has very very little to do with reliability. A few examples would be my 1983 Mk1 Golf Gti that I owned for 4 years until it's 27th birthday when the gearbox gave in. In the 4 years I had it the car never refused to start or broke down. It needed routine maintenance like any other car but it was a reliable car.
There was an 8 yr old Clio sport that was also reliable, but needed regular maintenance on suspension and engine mounts etc. That was the newest car I've ever owned.
My wife had to have the engine rebuilt in her 5 yr old MX5 and a gearbox re build in a 5 yr old Polo.
I've also had dreadfully unreliable cars that constantly refused to start and broke down, of varying ages.
My point. It seems to me age is not the main factor in reliability. (I'd gladly be proved wrong). But im at a point now where reliability is the MOST important thing in a car. I have not got time for repairs or breakdowns so am considering a newer or new car. Now, Is this going to work. DO brand new cars break down... I'm led to believe they do. Yes, they're under warranty. But that's not much help. It's not the cost of repairs but the inconvenience that I struggle with.
As said I'm not particularly looking for personal stories although please do share. Im looking for hard evidence on breakdown data or maybe warranty claims. Do 3 yr old cars suffer more warranty claims that 1 yr old etc etc.
rufusgti said:
Im looking for hard evidence on breakdown data or maybe warranty claims. Do 3 yr old cars suffer more warranty claims that 1 yr old etc etc.
I applaud the approach on the hard evidence approach.What is the percentage sample of the population you are going to use?
I hope it is pretty high and not just a couple of hundred PH posts.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the work has already been done for you by various bodies.
Troubleatmill said:
rufusgti said:
Im looking for hard evidence on breakdown data or maybe warranty claims. Do 3 yr old cars suffer more warranty claims that 1 yr old etc etc.
I applaud the approach on the hard evidence approach.What is the percentage sample of the population you are going to use?
I hope it is pretty high and not just a couple of hundred PH posts.
I'm pretty sure a lot of the work has already been done for you by various bodies.
tough call...
Warranty Direct is a good start as they look at quantifiable numbers.
You need to look beyond their headline statements though as they multiply reliability by cost to repair.
in other words a car that breaks down a lot but is cheap to repair ranks highly. Whereas you might prefer a car that ranks lowly because it breaks infrequently but cost a lot to repair when it does.
JD Power is qualitative, hence Skodas score highly against VWs because (maybe) expectations are different?
Fleet operators?
Warranty Direct is a good start as they look at quantifiable numbers.
You need to look beyond their headline statements though as they multiply reliability by cost to repair.
in other words a car that breaks down a lot but is cheap to repair ranks highly. Whereas you might prefer a car that ranks lowly because it breaks infrequently but cost a lot to repair when it does.
JD Power is qualitative, hence Skodas score highly against VWs because (maybe) expectations are different?
Fleet operators?
Not warranty claims, though this site lists the pass rate of many cars at MOT
http://good-garage-guide.honestjohn.co.uk/mot-resu...
The information is available direct from VOSA too.
http://good-garage-guide.honestjohn.co.uk/mot-resu...
The information is available direct from VOSA too.
Although I only have anecdotal evidence- from work and running my own personal cars, there seems to be little to no correlation between age, mileage and reliability.
By reliability, I mean being unable to operate safely and/or letting you down - problems/niggles which affect newer cars are ironed out by the time the vehicle has been around a while and put more miles on.
Most short 100k mile shelf life's where well and truly gone by the late 80's for most manufacturers.
Technologically, you could argue a car from 1990 to be more reliable than a car from 2014 - given the same mileage and overall condition.
Given all this, i'd much rather run my 1995 car with 151k miles every day than its 2014 equivalent if I wanted to be sure it'd get me there.
By reliability, I mean being unable to operate safely and/or letting you down - problems/niggles which affect newer cars are ironed out by the time the vehicle has been around a while and put more miles on.
Most short 100k mile shelf life's where well and truly gone by the late 80's for most manufacturers.
Technologically, you could argue a car from 1990 to be more reliable than a car from 2014 - given the same mileage and overall condition.
Given all this, i'd much rather run my 1995 car with 151k miles every day than its 2014 equivalent if I wanted to be sure it'd get me there.
dbdb said:
Not warranty claims, though this site lists the pass rate of many cars at MOT
http://good-garage-guide.honestjohn.co.uk/mot-resu...
The information is available direct from VOSA too.
That's an interesting one. On one hand it gives useful information, Yet every car goes in for MOT. It's a trip to the garage once a year. Whether it fails or passes first time is less of an issue compared to the breakdown data. Although it's a great start thankyou. http://good-garage-guide.honestjohn.co.uk/mot-resu...
The information is available direct from VOSA too.
I had a professor who taught me when I started training in the aviation field. He was a professor of aerodynamics but at that time was closely involved in Kenwood (the company) and he also designed part of Ford's Zetec engine.
The point he made to me, was that if it was to...a car will most likely break down and need warranty style repairs within the first year (with just general usage). After that, it becomes less likely until around 5-6 years where whilst there's a chance...it's unlikely anything outside of wear and tear items will become an issue unless you're doing high mileage. IIRC, it was at around 8-10 years old that a car will start to have a few issues that could potentially put them off the road etc.
All I know for sure is that his nickname for Ford (despite being part of their engine design team at one point) was "found on road dead"
The point he made to me, was that if it was to...a car will most likely break down and need warranty style repairs within the first year (with just general usage). After that, it becomes less likely until around 5-6 years where whilst there's a chance...it's unlikely anything outside of wear and tear items will become an issue unless you're doing high mileage. IIRC, it was at around 8-10 years old that a car will start to have a few issues that could potentially put them off the road etc.
All I know for sure is that his nickname for Ford (despite being part of their engine design team at one point) was "found on road dead"
Too many variables.
Three identical cars at 100K miles.
The first has spent it's life doing 70mph on motorways.
The second has spent it's life doing stop, start journeys in London
The third has been driven with little car sympathy.
I would think the first car is statistically more likely to be reliable out of the three.
But unless you capture information at a very detailed level - all you are doing is making generalisations.
Three identical cars at 100K miles.
The first has spent it's life doing 70mph on motorways.
The second has spent it's life doing stop, start journeys in London
The third has been driven with little car sympathy.
I would think the first car is statistically more likely to be reliable out of the three.
But unless you capture information at a very detailed level - all you are doing is making generalisations.
Realistically, it's going to be affected by people either doing or ignoring routine maintenance and servicing that will affect even cars that are generally thought of as being reliable.
I'll state clearly now that I think Lexus have every reason to be regarded as the least likely brand to break down if looked after correctly. Why? Because I processed warranty claims for them for several years, still have friends and acquaintances who are on the spanners at the dealers, and currently am in possession of two models, neither of which have caused a problem in the 3-4 years we've owned them. One is an 04 plate, the other an 09.
The fly in the ointment are the diesel models, which suffer from coking up if not driven hard as often as possible.
I'll state clearly now that I think Lexus have every reason to be regarded as the least likely brand to break down if looked after correctly. Why? Because I processed warranty claims for them for several years, still have friends and acquaintances who are on the spanners at the dealers, and currently am in possession of two models, neither of which have caused a problem in the 3-4 years we've owned them. One is an 04 plate, the other an 09.
The fly in the ointment are the diesel models, which suffer from coking up if not driven hard as often as possible.
Troubleatmill said:
Too many variables.
Three identical cars at 100K miles.
The first has spent it's life doing 70mph on motorways.
The second has spent it's life doing stop, start journeys in London
The third has been driven with little car sympathy.
I would think the first car is statistically more likely to be reliable out of the three.
But unless you capture information at a very detailed level - all you are doing is making generalisations.
I agree with this statement there is no defined answer which car is the most reliable and trouble free.Three identical cars at 100K miles.
The first has spent it's life doing 70mph on motorways.
The second has spent it's life doing stop, start journeys in London
The third has been driven with little car sympathy.
I would think the first car is statistically more likely to be reliable out of the three.
But unless you capture information at a very detailed level - all you are doing is making generalisations.
I used to run Old VW Beetles.All did well over 100000 miles.If I had to take a car through the desert or any cold climate country.I would take that little aircooled engine driven car.
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