Wednesday 15th January 2014

SEAT's visionary approach: PH Blog

Why visibility is more important than horsepower

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Which car is faster - the one with 400hp or the one with half that and great visibility? If you drive an older, less powerful car, one built before the days of tree-trunk width A-pillars and elephantine wing mirrors, you'll know the answer of course.

Faster point to point, nowt to do with the turbo

Both of these blights on modern cars are, partly of course, a legislative necessity since regulation put greater emphasis on protection during a crash than avoiding having it in the first place. The other factor is our own vanity and the fashion for ever 'sleeker' windowlines resulting in many modern cars having less glass area than your average armoured vehicle. Meaning we then need to load them up with bleeping 'assist' systems to make up for the fact we can't see out of them anymore. And, yes, I've woken up in something of a curmudgeonly mood.

For pedestrians and those on two wheels - pedal or engine powered - these trends are deeply worrying. Raked back A-pillars with huge wing mirrors at their intersection with the door create junction blindspots that could hide a bus, let alone a cyclist or motorbike. Doubly worrying on the SUVs among the worst offenders.

More exploitable because you can see out of it

But it's also a pain for the keen driver, those all-important sight lines through corners you depend on when driving 'at pace' commonly blocked on many modern cars. I was struck by this in particular driving the Clio 200 and Fiesta ST, both of whom have tall scuttles, thick pillars and 'quarterlight' style front windows that severely restrict vision at anything other than the straight ahead. Which ruins your flow along the kind of twisty B-road a hot hatch should excel on.

It's one of the reasons I think classic Imprezas made such great British backroad cars. The low bonnet, upright windscreen and thin pillars made them wonderfully easy to place on the road and, speaking as former owner, were as big a part in its cross country pace as the turbocharged boxer engine and four-wheel drive. See also older 911s, the McLaren 12C, new Minis, Caterhams (and their ilk) and most of the Elise/Exige family. You can have all the power in the world but if you can't see out of the thing or have confidence in its position on the road it's completely wasted, which is probably why I felt distinctly nervy driving the Jaguar F-Type for the first time.

Another reason we're up for the Cupra

So, why the shout to SEAT in the introduction to this rant? Well, ahead of getting in the very exciting sounding Leon Cupra we've had its more modest FR brother in this week in an attempt to get back up to speed with the car. There's much to like about it (more in due course) but the thing that struck me first was how great the visibility is. The pillars are commendably slim and by mounting the mirrors on the door the Leon combines the neat trick of being stylistically distinctive but also opens up that crucial corner of the side window so commonly obscured in many other modern cars.

That, to me, is proper design and one highlighted in the press release for the amazing looking Toyota FT-1 concept, which has A-pillars specifically shaped to improve visibility through corners. Like the SEAT's mirrors, if it looks good AND has a functional benefit someone's done their job right.

Now that's out of the way once we come to drive the Cupra we can stick to more PH-worthy observations like the 280hp power output, adjustable dampers and active locking diff. And the ability to see where you're going when you use them to the full. Which will be nice.

Dan

[kourgath]

About time - I know Volvo did their special A-posts but modern cars have gone so far down the secondary safety route that the primary safety has been badly compromised.

One of the reasons I prefer driving my Defender somewhere I don't know is the great view out.

[dukebox9reg]

Good that it is improved. Was dreadful on the mark 2 Leon. Very difficult to place, going round a right hand bend and where the front was. Especially roundabouts without hanging your head out of the window.

Also have to agree, very easy to place my Mini Countryman

Edited by dukebox9reg on Wednesday 15th January 10:39

[AlexIT]

I was just thinking the same a few days back while driving the Leon after a drive of a friend's Clio RS197.
I don't know if the mirrors of the Leon are actually smaller, but the Clio ones are the size of what a few year back could have been considered a well-sized TV screen!

[Krikkit]

Agree completely, I think that's a big criticism of a lot of cars, and not all the old-school ones are exempt either; my Puma is terrible for both front and rear visibility, despite thin A-pillars! It's all about the angle as well as thickness...

[dukebox9reg]

The Crack Fox said:

What, exactly, is the point of Seat?

Well Im waiting for a Leon ST Cupra. Much nicer than the chav wagon Focus ST estate and the Octavia doesn't float my boat.

So that's the point, quick cars that look and feel more sporty than a golf and not as chavvy as a Ford at Ford Prices(ish)

[BristolLee]

Krikkit said:

It's all about the angle as well as thickness...

Is that what all the girls tell you?

Sorry, just couldn't resist!

In all seriousness, i couldn't agree more with this blog piece. In both the Ka and the Celica, it's easy to place the car in the width of the lane and to see early what's coming up.

I drive a lot of hire cars for work and I know that they're unfamiliar cars, but so many of them have hideous blind spots. Astras and Golfs especially.

I think it's actually a combination of things in addition to safety. Designers and engineers consideration of seating position for instance as part of cabin ergonomics is often overlooked as part of the equation, resulting in some brilliant touchpoints but bog all ability to position yourself decently to see the road ahead or behind.

[trunks82]

I had a go in a friends corsa vxr and it really was like sitting in a pillbox.

[Antj]

SEAT, used to be the part of VAG we all thought was going to take on the world.

Unfortunately its now a victim of its own poor design and sales performance and VAG's pecking order.

VW and Audi the mummy and daddy in the VAG family have been unkind to little SEAT. Partly because SEAT's brother Skoda has been doing really well at school so has now become the budget VAG brand of choice. Sales are up year on year, the market share is going up all the time and its a brand people know now including their range. Where as SEAT is just ticking along relying solely on its Spanish market to cover the costs.

I personally think the plans VW and Audi have had about adopting another child in the form of Alfa Romeo would make more sense, you only have to look at what has happened to the cousins ducati, Lamborghini and Bentley to see how the family can make a good brand run 9 ducati still in first phase but getting there).


Back in the early 2000's SEAT had the sporty pedigree to keep its profile up, they rallyed the Ibiza very successfully and they also had mass exposure to BTCC and WTCC. this helped shift the brand image and meant the Cupra was a cool car to own especially in cupra R form. oh and the price difference was there to warrant a decision to go the Leon route over a Golf. but now its gone, a few ex WTCC cars are in endurance races such as Britcar, VLN and so on but thats your lot. No rallying as Skoda (admittedly more history in first place) and VW are back and plans for next years A1 rally car looking more serious day by day. So SEAT has nothing to keep it int he public's view apart from cars that look a bit like the Skoda and VW they all know.

But now over 10 years on VAG stomped on the idea of a proper 4 wheel drive cupra ( which we never got in the UK last time) purely as it was too close to the S3 and Golf R. oh and what happened to the price difference, circa 28k for a cupra and 29500 for a Golf R. You'd have to be mad to choose the former.

So for me VAg need to work out what they want to do with SEAT and either push it as the sporty brand and allow it some proper cars on its fleet or simply put it out of its misery.

I've owned 3 sporty SEAT's including the ground breaking Ibiza Cupra TDi, but even i would never consider a SEAT again, i'd be more inclined to look to Skoda for my budget VAG thrills

[nickfrog]

I think the article was essentially (and quite rightly) about the benefits of good visibility. It wasn't about SEAT really but I appreciate that commenting about an article without reading it or needlessly commenting about side issues is par for the course on PH.

[anonymous-user]

Absolutely spot on. It's not just driving fast as well. The W210 Merc I've got at the moment is a nightmare just to pilot about a car park - the constant nagging doubt that there's something in the various blind-spots makes even the car park at Waitrose a bit of a pain. As for driving fast, well it's not a bad steer surprisingly but the A' pillar blind spot is huge. Roundabouts are just a bloody lottery sometimes. The old W124 I had before was easy to drive fast visibility wise. I rented a current shape Astra in France recently and not only could I not see out - neither could the kids. Cue much fighting between them - the visibility from the back seats was incredibly bad. Reversing that car into a space was terrible. My dad, normally a fairly mild-mannered chap was absolutely enraged by it. It's mad how something so utterly essential like the drivers range of view is considered such a small priority. Very few things illustrate the insanity of modern consumerism better.

[Oddball RS]

I don't understand this article at all, better vision, thinner A pillars lower bonnet lines, they may make it marginally safer to drive but they make no car faster.

Familiar lanes etc are often driven from memory and experience, if you ever really think I could drive faster on here if only I could see better then you are pushing the envelope too far and need to find a wide open space like a track.

Sight lines depend on seat position and eye level more than anything else, if you think you can't see enough then you need to slow down, I drive an E Coupe no B pillar makes it easier to see out of at junctions but no faster and you mention Elise's their A pillars are quite wide and vision out of anything other that the windscreen is crap, but they are still great on country roads...

I just don't follow.

[HemiCommander]

A good point well made. I always used to think that parking sensors were for people who couldn't drive but I now realise that my new car would be completely impossible to maneuver without them as I can't see out of it at all. The A pillars are huge and too far forward, the B pillars obstruct my sideways view at junctions and the rear visibility is nonexistant. My old Landcruiser was bigger in every dimension but a doddle to maneuver, park and drive in general as the visibility in all directions was so good.

[skyrover]

Road deaths are at their lowest in recorded history despite more cars than ever on our crowded streets.

The argument does not stand up to the reality.

That's not to say I would not approve of finding some way to minimize the thickness of a-pillars... but obviously the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

[mrclav]

Ah yes, the 12C - as much as people deride it in favour of the 458, it's this attention to detail that in my mind makes it the better purchase when using a car of this type as a daily (as well as all the other things like better fuel economy and interior ergonomics). The SLS is really bad in this respect (at least in coupe form) as effectively the back of the door frame makes for an A and B pillar all in one, in other words it's the worst blind-spot I've yet encountered on any car I've ever driven.

[nickfrog]

Oddball RS said:

I don't understand this article at all, better vision, thinner A pillars lower bonnet lines, they may make it marginally safer to drive but they make no car faster.

A long time ago (2001?) when I was working at PalmerSport we used to run Audi S3s and Audi TTs on the same circuit (South IIRC). Very similar car in effect with the S3 just 15hp down. Out of thousands of average road drivers taking part, a huge majority were slower in the TT. Only logical explanation was visibility.

[Craikeybaby]

I can identify with this, last year I had the oportunity to take an XKR for a blat up my favourite B road - it was fast on the straight bit, but the visibility was pants (not helped by it being LHD) making it hard to place the car, meaning I had to take corners slower etc. I felt like I would have been faster in my MX-5, it would certainly have been more fun!

[ManOpener]

dukebox9reg said:

Good that it is improved. Was dreadful on the mark 2 Leon. Very difficult to place, going round a right hand bend and where the front was. Especially roundabouts without hanging your head out of the window.

Agreed wholeheartedly, the forward visibility is awful. You can actually see better out of the back of a 1P Leon than you can the front.

[Madkat]

Prevention is better than cure. Ultimately it'll make sod all difference as cars get 'safer' in the public eye drivers will get more complacent and the two will end up complementing each other until we end up with robotic cars. It baffles me how some people think these cars are safe as i'd bet my remaining kidney they don't have a clue how any of these systems work let alone the rest of the car and you can be damn sure they don't appreciate they're driving a 1+ ton missile.

So if a manufacturer wants to allow more responsibility for the driver to see whats going on rather than the car that can only be a good thing.

[Penneth]

Confusing article. You praise the Leon for mirrors being on doors and increasing visibility yet slander the Clio 200T and Fiesta ST... for having their mirrors on the doors?

[AlexIT]

Penneth said:

Confusing article. You praise the Leon for mirrors being on doors and increasing visibility yet slander the Clio 200T and Fiesta ST... for having their mirrors on the doors?

Having driven both the Leon and the Clio (albeit the 197) the positioning of the mirrors on the Leon is far less intrusive, despite being both door-mounted.