V12V gearchange and Sport button
Discussion
As already reported I am the new and adoring owner of a stunning V12V. I chose the car at least partly because I wanted a manual gearbox, and most of the time I really like the gearchange in my car - but not the change from first to second when the car is cold. I am finding it quite difficult to make a clean change from first to second when cold, and it's a bit difficult to work out what technique is best since the problem only arises during the time the car is cold. I rather think that what works best for me is a slow double declutch upchange.
Is this a common issue in V12V's? Have V12V owners worked out the best technique for making the first to second change when cold (V slow change? Slightly faster change? Double de-clutch? - what works for you?).
Now the Sport button. The manual says it changes torque level, as well as throttle map and exhaust valve. Does it really change the torque level? Do most of you leave your cars in Sport most of the time? (Had a lovely drive today, first time my wife had spent much time in the car. Her view: 'Since it is never particularly quiet, you might as well have it in Sport all the time and have that glorious noise'. But I rather enjoyed seeing how swiftly I could go while keeping the exhaust quiet.)
Is this a common issue in V12V's? Have V12V owners worked out the best technique for making the first to second change when cold (V slow change? Slightly faster change? Double de-clutch? - what works for you?).
Now the Sport button. The manual says it changes torque level, as well as throttle map and exhaust valve. Does it really change the torque level? Do most of you leave your cars in Sport most of the time? (Had a lovely drive today, first time my wife had spent much time in the car. Her view: 'Since it is never particularly quiet, you might as well have it in Sport all the time and have that glorious noise'. But I rather enjoyed seeing how swiftly I could go while keeping the exhaust quiet.)
Edited by waremark on Sunday 19th January 20:49
waremark said:
Now the Sport button. The manual says it changes torque level, as well as throttle map and exhaust valve. Does it really change the torque level? Do most of you leave your cars in Sport most of the time? (Had a lovely drive today, first time my wife had spent much time in the car. Her view: 'Since it is never particularly quiet, you might as well have it in Sport all the time and have that glorious noise'. But I rather enjoyed seeing how swiftly I could go while keeping the exhaust quiet.)
Nope, no impact whatsoever on BHP or torque. The sport button does only 2 things:Edited by waremark on Sunday 19th January 20:49
1) Opens the exhaust valves all the time - something that can be done by removing the relvent fuse.
2) Remaps the throttle from linear line to an exponential curve - i.e. without sport button, 10% throttle = 10% throttle, 50% pedal = 50% throttle and so on..., with sport button pressed 10% pedal = 10% throttle, 50% pedal = 75% throttle and so on...
So basically the sport button makes it sounds louder and gives you a heavy right foot. You can make it sound exactly the same by removing the exhaust fuse, and you have far more control of the throttle. Yes the sport button makes the car seem faster, but it isn't - just push the throttle more if you want to go the same speed. In winter the sport button is particually useless as with the corsa tyres it adds up to frequent wheelspin, but in summer it can add the occasional smile, but only because it tricks you into going faster than you planned to.
Remove the fuse, enjoy the sound all year round and just save the sport button for summer smiles.
My car is silky smooth from 1st to 2nd, even in the cold in winter. I would suggest you take it back to a main dealer for a quick check if yours isn't. The V8V 1-2 change is clunky, the V12V 1-2 change isn't!
Edited by AdamV12V on Sunday 19th January 21:44
Take a look at the 'Project Blofeld delivery day' thread started today by Speculatore who begins by saying
"Well, as some of you know I collected Project 'BLOFELD' from the 'Bamford Rose' clinic yesterday. The initial reason for taking it there was because the manual gearbox was almost unusable when cold, particularly in 1st and 2nd gear."
His is a DB9 but I'm sure you would find it interesting reading
"Well, as some of you know I collected Project 'BLOFELD' from the 'Bamford Rose' clinic yesterday. The initial reason for taking it there was because the manual gearbox was almost unusable when cold, particularly in 1st and 2nd gear."
His is a DB9 but I'm sure you would find it interesting reading
MollyGTi said:
Take a look at the 'Project Blofeld delivery day' thread started today by Speculatore who begins by saying
"Well, as some of you know I collected Project 'BLOFELD' from the 'Bamford Rose' clinic yesterday. The initial reason for taking it there was because the manual gearbox was almost unusable when cold, particularly in 1st and 2nd gear."
His is a DB9 but I'm sure you would find it interesting reading
Thanks folks for your rapid input."Well, as some of you know I collected Project 'BLOFELD' from the 'Bamford Rose' clinic yesterday. The initial reason for taking it there was because the manual gearbox was almost unusable when cold, particularly in 1st and 2nd gear."
His is a DB9 but I'm sure you would find it interesting reading
I did read about the BR work on the DB9 and found it interesting! But it sounds as though my car is non-typical for a V12V. Bought at 3,400 miles, now a few hundred more. Not a big problem because the gear change is very nice once warm and it is only the 1 to 2 change which is bad when cold, but will ask dealer about it.
Amused by the comments about starting in a higher gear. One option which seems to work ok when in a 30 limit is to go 1st then 6th!
On the Sport button, I found the story about higher torque surprising, but that is what I read in the manual. So far as the exhaust valve goes, I will leave the fuse in and enjoy being able to choose what the car sounds like. I am happy with the throttle mapping either way (I think it is easier for H & T in Sport).
This is not uncommon when the trans is cold, even if some say their's is easy from 1st to 2nd. Two things you can do is shift from 1st to 3rd until sufficiently warmed up, and even then you may want to continue to do so on occasion. Secondly, although not many miles, a change of transaxle oil can make a big improvement in the shift quality, hot and cold.
One more thing that may help is to alter you movement from 1st to 2nd by pausing ever so briefly in the neutral gate, letting the lever, under its spring load, move partially sideways towards the 3/4 gate, them pulling the lever back to the 1/2 gate and into 2nd. Sounds complicated, but is actually easy to do, and for some reason it makes getting into 2nd much, much easier.
One more thing that may help is to alter you movement from 1st to 2nd by pausing ever so briefly in the neutral gate, letting the lever, under its spring load, move partially sideways towards the 3/4 gate, them pulling the lever back to the 1/2 gate and into 2nd. Sounds complicated, but is actually easy to do, and for some reason it makes getting into 2nd much, much easier.
DB9VolanteDriver said:
This is not uncommon when the trans is cold, even if some say their's is easy from 1st to 2nd. Two things you can do is shift from 1st to 3rd until sufficiently warmed up, and even then you may want to continue to do so on occasion. Secondly, although not many miles, a change of transaxle oil can make a big improvement in the shift quality, hot and cold.
One more thing that may help is to alter you movement from 1st to 2nd by pausing ever so briefly in the neutral gate, letting the lever, under its spring load, move partially sideways towards the 3/4 gate, them pulling the lever back to the 1/2 gate and into 2nd. Sounds complicated, but is actually easy to do, and for some reason it makes getting into 2nd much, much easier.
This^^^^^^^One more thing that may help is to alter you movement from 1st to 2nd by pausing ever so briefly in the neutral gate, letting the lever, under its spring load, move partially sideways towards the 3/4 gate, them pulling the lever back to the 1/2 gate and into 2nd. Sounds complicated, but is actually easy to do, and for some reason it makes getting into 2nd much, much easier.
I'd have your supplying dealer adjust the linkage as generally the V12V does not suffer from the same gear change issues as the V8V did, due to changes to the bellcrank set-up (etc), although early cars may have more of an issue, what model year is it?
With regards to the Sport mode, I don't tend to use it in wet/cold conditions as IMO it reduces the accuracy and finesse of your throttle modulation and makes the car less enjoyable to drive, great fun for flat out fast fun in summer though
With regards to the Sport mode, I don't tend to use it in wet/cold conditions as IMO it reduces the accuracy and finesse of your throttle modulation and makes the car less enjoyable to drive, great fun for flat out fast fun in summer though
V12woollie said:
I believe that the vales open earlier so you get more sound earlier (3,000ish RPM rather than 4,000ish RPM). Of course I could be wrong as I had fuse 15 out from minute one. I'm pretty sure it does not open the valves all the time though.
from what i understand, the valves are *open* flow at idle to 2000rpm... then closed up to 4500 rpm (muffled sound).. then open again from then on till red line. In other words:
Open
close
Open
is standard sequence.
Fuse 22 removed beind opened all the time.
I did not think sport button affected that in anyway (assuming fuse 15 or 22 still in place). Someone please tell me otherwise...
erics said:
from what i understand, the valves are *open* flow at idle to 2000rpm... then closed up to 4500 rpm (muffled sound).. then open again from then on till red line.
In other words:
Open
close
Open
is standard sequence.
Fuse 22 removed beind opened all the time.
I did not think sport button affected that in anyway (assuming fuse 15 or 22 still in place). Someone please tell me otherwise...
I'm fairly sure the sport button lowers the second opening to around 3,000 RPM and then open to red-line. So open up to 2,000 rpm when idling, closed to 3,000ish RPM, then open again.In other words:
Open
close
Open
is standard sequence.
Fuse 22 removed beind opened all the time.
I did not think sport button affected that in anyway (assuming fuse 15 or 22 still in place). Someone please tell me otherwise...
The last couple of posts are pretty much correct. In either mode, the valves open on starting the engine but then close. The sport button determines how high up the rev range the valves open again - IIRC it's at 3,500 in Sport mode and 4,500 in normal mode.
It is not uncommon for people to suggest as some earlier posts do that sport just opens the valves up full stop - that's incorrect.
The other thing sport does as widely reported above is change throttle response. If you press sport whilst driving at a constant speed keeping your foot in a constant position on the accelerator, the car will actually suddenly start travelling at a higher speed.
I tend to use sport pretty much all the time apart from the first 10 mintues whilst the car is warming up or, in very wet/icy conditions. Others don't like sport as much. I'd like to think we can all agree it's personal preference rather than better/worse - to me, one of several reasons I prefer sport is the car feels like it can accelerate faster with sport on. It doesn't matter to me whether that's an illusion - I prefer the sensation. I also find, again whether it's an illusion or not, that reaction to pressing the throttle is much more immediate with sport depressed and I prefer that. As I say, I accept there is a huge element of personal preference because there are people who's views I respect who prefer sport off, so it's what's right for the individual rather than a blanket 'best'
It is not uncommon for people to suggest as some earlier posts do that sport just opens the valves up full stop - that's incorrect.
The other thing sport does as widely reported above is change throttle response. If you press sport whilst driving at a constant speed keeping your foot in a constant position on the accelerator, the car will actually suddenly start travelling at a higher speed.
I tend to use sport pretty much all the time apart from the first 10 mintues whilst the car is warming up or, in very wet/icy conditions. Others don't like sport as much. I'd like to think we can all agree it's personal preference rather than better/worse - to me, one of several reasons I prefer sport is the car feels like it can accelerate faster with sport on. It doesn't matter to me whether that's an illusion - I prefer the sensation. I also find, again whether it's an illusion or not, that reaction to pressing the throttle is much more immediate with sport depressed and I prefer that. As I say, I accept there is a huge element of personal preference because there are people who's views I respect who prefer sport off, so it's what's right for the individual rather than a blanket 'best'
DB9VolanteDriver said:
This is not uncommon when the trans is cold, even if some say their's is easy from 1st to 2nd. Two things you can do is shift from 1st to 3rd until sufficiently warmed up, and even then you may want to continue to do so on occasion. Secondly, although not many miles, a change of transaxle oil can make a big improvement in the shift quality, hot and cold.
One more thing that may help is to alter you movement from 1st to 2nd by pausing ever so briefly in the neutral gate, letting the lever, under its spring load, move partially sideways towards the 3/4 gate, them pulling the lever back to the 1/2 gate and into 2nd. Sounds complicated, but is actually easy to do, and for some reason it makes getting into 2nd much, much easier.
Very helpful suggestions. I took it out when cold this am and did the '1st - neutral - sideways to the 3/4 plane - 2nd' thing and it went into 2nd nicely. 1st to 3rd also works fine.One more thing that may help is to alter you movement from 1st to 2nd by pausing ever so briefly in the neutral gate, letting the lever, under its spring load, move partially sideways towards the 3/4 gate, them pulling the lever back to the 1/2 gate and into 2nd. Sounds complicated, but is actually easy to do, and for some reason it makes getting into 2nd much, much easier.
Sticky gearbox oil is a possibility, a problem with the linkage seems unlikely since the change is so good when thoroughly warmed up. Overall, not a big problem, but will ask a dealer in due course.
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