notice period negotiation

[briantherobot]

Hello all, newbie here so please be nice
Having been offered a new job, I now have the task of negotiating a reduced notice period from 3 months to 1 month/6 weeks in order to begin my new role. Have expressed my desire to leave at an earlier date both face to face and by letter, current employer seems reluctant to waiver this.. But will consider it!
Where does that leave me and what to tell my new employer Not being in a senior or management position 3 months seems like an extremely long time. How would you play it..?

[anonymous-user]

Ask them nicely, then not nicely.
then if the date isn't agreed - decide how big your balls are and just leave and wait for them to sue you. Or suck it up and stay.

they probably won't sue, and it won't be for much (relatively) if they do.

[TurricanII]

Didn't you tell your new employer about your 3 month notice at the interview stage? 3 months notice is not unusual in skilled jobs.

If you told the new employer then did they insist that you quit your old job early? If so then their questionable morals would ring alarm bells for me..

Perhaps the existing employer is trying to recruit someone to fill your shoes.

It would be pretty crap if phone/sky/broadband/car lease companies cut you off without the agreed notice yet people are too often are eager to breach their employment contracts that are worth tens of thousands.

[Terminator X]

I stayed for my 3 month notice period the only 2 times that I've handed it in, didn't even consider shortening it tbh.

I did have a chap working for me that wanted to shorten it to which I agreed; he was ste though and costing the company money!

TX.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Here's my take on this.

I know it sounds unprofessional and a bit flaky...but...

I've been in quite a few senior management roles in my working life. Yes, I've had good remuneration for them - but not for nothing either - I've had to be the company's 'bh' on each and every occasion, having to commit to working some really long hours, and basically give up a life outside of work.

This I have done, willingly, as I have respected my senior roles and the responsibility that came with them.

However. Annoyingly, on more than one occasion, it has also been clear that despite my efforts, if the company's balance sheet has indicated that culls should be made, and my position has appeared on that radar, I have been ousted without so much as an apology, coupled with an insulting 'redundancy' payment. Basically treated like an expendable part of the 'machine' in a pretty inhuman, insensitive manner.

Following these, I realised that my life and my happiness is mine and mine alone to look after, and that my experience (and that of other friends of mine too) is that most companies couldn't care a single jot about their employees and their well-being. If it suits the profit / loss at the time, then whoever you are, you're binned without so much as a nod to any and all of the good work you might have slogged your guts out to do.


So, shamelessly - my take on tings now is that I look after number one, and companies can go fk themselves, the greedy profiteering bds. I will put in a solid day's work for my salary, yes....but if I ever decided it was time to go which suited me - then I would bloody well go, on my terms and on my timescale.

If my departure didn't suit their 'notice period...' well tough titty. They sure as hell wouldn't care less if the shoe was on the other foot!


You have just the one, short life my friend. Really. Once you get old and die, you die, that is it. You sure as hell won't care about upsetting some commercial organisation on your deathbed, that's for sure.

So, suit yourself...because no-one else will!

[Sir Fergie]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Here's my take on this.

I know it sounds unprofessional and a bit flaky...but...

I've been in quite a few senior management roles in my working life. Yes, I've had good remuneration for them - but not for nothing either - I've had to be the company's 'bh' on each and every occasion, having to commit to working some really long hours, and basically give up a life outside of work.

This I have done, willingly, as I have respected my senior roles and the responsibility that came with them.

However. Annoyingly, on more than one occasion, it has also been clear that despite my efforts, if the company's balance sheet has indicated that culls should be made, and my position has appeared on that radar, I have been ousted without so much as an apology, coupled with an insulting 'redundancy' payment. Basically treated like an expendable part of the 'machine' in a pretty inhuman, insensitive manner.

Following these, I realised that my life and my happiness is mine and mine alone to look after, and that my experience (and that of other friends of mine too) is that most companies couldn't care a single jot about their employees and their well-being. If it suits the profit / loss at the time, then whoever you are, you're binned without so much as a nod to any and all of the good work you might have slogged your guts out to do.


So, shamelessly - my take on tings now is that I look after number one, and companies can go fk themselves, the greedy profiteering bds. I will put in a solid day's work for my salary, yes....but if I ever decided it was time to go which suited me - then I would bloody well go, on my terms and on my timescale.

If my departure didn't suit their 'notice period...' well tough titty. They sure as hell wouldn't care less if the shoe was on the other foot!


You have just the one, short life my friend. Really. Once you get old and die, you die, that is it. You sure as hell won't care about upsetting some commercial organisation on your deathbed, that's for sure.

So, suit yourself...because no-one else will!

Personally - I agree with the above - at the end of the day - your future is with the new company - so youd try and fit in with their schedule.

Think 1 month is plenty notice - 3 months is a bit excessive really.

I can see the idea that its good to keep a positive relationship with the current company - not looking to burn bridges. and its thus good to avoid leaving them in an awkward situation.

But at same time - id say it would be next to impossible to get new work if you had to give 3 months notice to the current company.

A lot of companies would like you to start ASAP - for the exact reasons why they are advertising a position in the first place. They don't want to be waiting 3 months for the new man to start work.

Is it better for a company to have a pd off employee - whose lost a job opportunity elsewhere due to a very long notice period - or is it better to just wish the employee the best of luck and get on with getting the replacement in as quickly as possible.

I would prefer the latter scenario - and if someone was a very good employee - I would be appreciative of the good work they had done for me (if I was an employer) - and be happy for them that they have an opportunity that's better for them than they had working for me.

Mind you - if I was an employer and had very very good staff working for me that did great work for the business - id be looking to treat them decently

[briantherobot]

Thanks all.. Don't want to burn bridges but guess if that's the only way to get out it has to be done..
These responses have definitely highlighted how important it is to look after number one!

[mr_spock]

I've done it both ways. Generally though, before I resign I prepare a handover plan. I tend to be quite organised and document everything anyway, whether in status reports, strategy documents, notes from planning meetings etc. That way a handover can be done in less than a month, since they won't recruit a replacement in 3 months anyway I usually handover to my department managers and my own manager.

If you can show a plan, so that for 2 months they're paying for nothing, they'll probably be OK with it, especially if you agree to be available to answer questions by email. I think I only ever had a couple of questions anyway, so it's not too onerous.

[bga]

briantherobot said:

Thanks all.. Don't want to burn bridges but guess if that's the only way to get out it has to be done..
These responses have definitely highlighted how important it is to look after number one!

Are you in a small industry? If someone did that to me I would make sure their name was mud. Notice periods are there for a reason and if we can be flexible we will, if not then it's for a reason and it's what the employee signed up to.

If I screwed over an employee then I would deserve the same.

If I found out someone had lied to their previous employer to come to us (like 99% of employers we ask for and understand notice periods) then they would rapidly find themselves without a job. It proves that an individual is both untrustworthy and incompetent.

[ikarl]

What industry are you in?

Can you not say you're going to a competitor/regulator in the hope of garden leave?

[New POD]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Here's my take on this.

I know it sounds unprofessional and a bit flaky...but...

I've been in quite a few senior management roles in my working life. Yes, I've had good remuneration for them - but not for nothing either - I've had to be the company's 'bh' on each and every occasion, having to commit to working some really long hours, and basically give up a life outside of work.

This I have done, willingly, as I have respected my senior roles and the responsibility that came with them.

However. Annoyingly, on more than one occasion, it has also been clear that despite my efforts, if the company's balance sheet has indicated that culls should be made, and my position has appeared on that radar, I have been ousted without so much as an apology, coupled with an insulting 'redundancy' payment. Basically treated like an expendable part of the 'machine' in a pretty inhuman, insensitive manner.

Following these, I realised that my life and my happiness is mine and mine alone to look after, and that my experience (and that of other friends of mine too) is that most companies couldn't care a single jot about their employees and their well-being. If it suits the profit / loss at the time, then whoever you are, you're binned without so much as a nod to any and all of the good work you might have slogged your guts out to do.


So, shamelessly - my take on tings now is that I look after number one, and companies can go fk themselves, the greedy profiteering bds. I will put in a solid day's work for my salary, yes....but if I ever decided it was time to go which suited me - then I would bloody well go, on my terms and on my timescale.

If my departure didn't suit their 'notice period...' well tough titty. They sure as hell wouldn't care less if the shoe was on the other foot!


You have just the one, short life my friend. Really. Once you get old and die, you die, that is it. You sure as hell won't care about upsetting some commercial organisation on your deathbed, that's for sure.

So, suit yourself...because no-one else will!

Yes but no but.

I absolutely agree with the sentiment, but you never know when you are going to meet said people again.

So you have a balance about the unknown future, so long term protecting your own arse is maybe a compromise.

I have a few examples. One lad, I worked with was in the middle of bringing in a new assembly and test line which was costing £250K, he's on 3 months notice, but really pissed off. His brother does lean contracting in the HNS at an daily ltd company rate 3 times his crap salary, and has managed to get him into a project he's working on, but needs to start in the next 2 weeks. He's lied at the interview, so he just tells our boss, that he's leaving in 5 days. Boss says he can't or they'll sue. Our hero says he'll go right now, and now even bother to hand anything over, and he can sue. Faced with that sort of st, Boss, backs down, says he'll have to sort it with HR. Next day. His computer won't log on, and he's escorted from the building. The boss had spent half the night with the IT department, going through every file, and every email, and decided he didn't need a handover, and that the emails to one of his mates externally, seemed to suggest that if they made an attempt to keep him longer than 5 days he'd delete all the work he'd done on it (not that the IT system wasn't backed every night, so nothing would be lost).
Then the real boss, an American, Owning 98% of the shares, from our parent company, got his lawyers to start proceedings for £200K for damages sustained due to breach of trust. He was the sort of guy that didn't care what it cost him, if someone acted like that, he'd spend what to him was a drop in the ocean, just for revenge.

We never heard about the outcome, but when I came to leave said company and wanted an early release, I did it a bit more "nicely does it". I went with a list and a 4 week handover plan, a letter to the UK MD stating that my next none competing employer, would happily wait 3 months, but as I could effect a professional handover in 4 weeks, I'd like them to agree to 1 month. I also said verbally that instead of working those extra 40 days, I would happily come back (at the same rate) at 1/2 day a week, plus any weekends (within reason) at the same rate over the next 6 months, in the unlikely event that my expertise was needed because I had some pride, and wanted things to go well for them.
In the end we agreed both reluctantly to 6 weeks, but I think I did sod all for the last 2 weeks, other than fix a few things that nobody knew needed fixing, and I'd put off for months.

[bga]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

Best thing is talk it out with the current place.

Agree. We had a PHer who worked with us on 3 month terms, IIRC it worked out that 3-4 weels was fine. Other people have been longer.

It's not like notice period isn't something you know and not something that applies to all companies.

[s2sol]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Here's my take on this.

I know it sounds unprofessional and a bit flaky...but...

I've been in quite a few senior management roles in my working life. Yes, I've had good remuneration for them - but not for nothing either - I've had to be the company's 'bh' on each and every occasion, having to commit to working some really long hours, and basically give up a life outside of work.

This I have done, willingly, as I have respected my senior roles and the responsibility that came with them.

However. Annoyingly, on more than one occasion, it has also been clear that despite my efforts, if the company's balance sheet has indicated that culls should be made, and my position has appeared on that radar, I have been ousted without so much as an apology, coupled with an insulting 'redundancy' payment. Basically treated like an expendable part of the 'machine' in a pretty inhuman, insensitive manner.

Following these, I realised that my life and my happiness is mine and mine alone to look after, and that my experience (and that of other friends of mine too) is that most companies couldn't care a single jot about their employees and their well-being. If it suits the profit / loss at the time, then whoever you are, you're binned without so much as a nod to any and all of the good work you might have slogged your guts out to do.


So, shamelessly - my take on tings now is that I look after number one, and companies can go fk themselves, the greedy profiteering bds. I will put in a solid day's work for my salary, yes....but if I ever decided it was time to go which suited me - then I would bloody well go, on my terms and on my timescale.

If my departure didn't suit their 'notice period...' well tough titty. They sure as hell wouldn't care less if the shoe was on the other foot!


You have just the one, short life my friend. Really. Once you get old and die, you die, that is it. You sure as hell won't care about upsetting some commercial organisation on your deathbed, that's for sure.

So, suit yourself...because no-one else will!

This, in my opinion, is nonsense. I'm sure the "insulting" redundancy payment would have been what you agreed to when you negotiated at the commencement of your employment. Had it not been what was mutually agreed, you could and should have sued for what you were owed.

I've been an employer and an employee, and I've always stood by what was initially agreed.

Imagine the boot was on the other foot here, and the OP's employer came on to ask if it was ok to tell the OP to leave with a month's money instead of three month's money, purely because the employer had found somebody he preferred, and the employer didn't feel he should fulfil his contractual obligations.

It's sheer hypocrisy to suggest that it's fine to treat employers the way Ray suggests, yet complain about "insulting" redundancy payments.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

If my departure didn't suit their 'notice period...' well tough titty. They sure as hell wouldn't care less if the shoe was on the other foot!

Are you saying that if they wanted rid of you and you have a 3 month notice period, they wouldn't honour it? That's just not true. They'd either let you work out the 3 months notice, or let you go with 3 months pay, keeping the company car, health insurance etc etc for 3 months.

OP, talk reasonably to them. It's not in anyone's best interests to have an employee hanging around who doesn't want to be there. If they don't agree, make it clear that having taken the decision to leave, you feel demotivated and they are unlikely to get much out of you for your notice period. Don't directly threaten to down tools but leave them in no doubt they'll be paying you for nothing if they make you stay.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

I understand what the last posters are saying.

I say 'insulting' redundancy payments because, on two occasions, I was binned before even a year had passed. So technically and contracturally, none was due.

Insulting because both these positions were senior management roles that I had worked so hard to secure, by properly grafting since I left school at 16, working Christ knows how many hours unpaid just to learn and get more and more experience, gone on equally God knows how many training courses at weekends paid for out of my own pocket, and generally been bloody good at what I do because of it.

My experience and ability has been hard-won, ground out bit by bit over many gruelling years. It's not an ability that one can blag of short-cut. Companies have hired me in recognition of them.

Trouble was, the nature of my roles were to sort the company out. Sort out the sales team and recruitment, sort out strategy and marketing, sort out workflow, quality control and procedures, sort out wastage, sort out purchasing, and generally plug gaps, stop money being wasted and streamline the company into a fit, lean, profitable place.

Hence, after usually 6 to 10 months, things start to look amazing and the profit margins tell the story of my success. The Director and board then clearly thinks "nice one, he's done us proud - now do I really need an ongoing General Manager? Probably not now he's sorted it all out. Cheers, bye! Oh and sorry, no meaningful redundancy for saving us all that money apart from a derisory 2 weeks as a gesture of goodwill..."

Those redundancies (along with the 4 other I've had in my working life) have left a bitter taste and shown how greedy and nasty these companies have actually been. They've also left me right in the st with some real hardship to contend with financially, obviously. Not to mention what it does to one psychologically. Let's just say I can now sympathise totally with anyone suffering from clinical depression and a self-esteem that's been kicked to death.

Ok, not everywhere is like that - but I get the strong impression that most corporates would behave in a similar way, no?

Hence, I have resolved to think about myself a bit more from now on, and companies can go fk themselves. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't cause a row, lose my temper or do anything completely precipitate - as said, better to leave as friends etc. I would try to discuss to the Nth degree how to proceed best. However, if it did come to it and there was a stalemate - then yes, I would think of myself first from now on.

[Siscar]

So you've been made redundant, what, six times? That's amazing.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Siscar said:

So you've been made redundant, what, six times? That's amazing.

Yes, six times in about 20 years. Although two of them were in the first 15.

So 4 redundancies in 5 years has left one feeling a wee bit deflated, as can be imagined. Especially now I'm at an age where I THOUGHT I would be secure professionally, and not have to worry about st like this...

Back at University now, doing a degree and having a complete life change away from corporates. However if I spend the next 3 years doing all this training, start my new career and get made redundant AGAIN, then that's it - I am throwing myself under a bus.