Fuel Cells and Firewalls
Discussion
Good morning chaps, I was wondering if you could enlighten me about something.
As you can see below, the car I have bought has an ATL 40L race fuel cell installed.
I have been told that FIA group N rules (and indeed normal motorsport practice) that it is manadatory to have the cell (if you have one) separated by a fire wall from the driver. I have reviewed the rules and used my best google-fu to find anything in the regulations that say this is the case, but I can't find anything.
The scrutineer is trying to force me to move it to the rear of the car which to me seems crazy as it takes the cell out of the safety zone of the roll cage and into the crumple zone of the rear of the car.
I don't know enough about the rules or indeed motorsport at this level to try argue the point and to be honest, as my mate correctly pointed out, regardless of what the rules say..if the scrutineer wont pass the car I cant race and even if I do manage to talk my way into keeping the cell where it is, he'll probably nit pick until he can find something to stop me racing anyway.
Thoughts and opinions regards to the safest place would be appreciated.
My compromise would be to have a lid fabricated over the cell where it is.
As you can see below, the car I have bought has an ATL 40L race fuel cell installed.
I have been told that FIA group N rules (and indeed normal motorsport practice) that it is manadatory to have the cell (if you have one) separated by a fire wall from the driver. I have reviewed the rules and used my best google-fu to find anything in the regulations that say this is the case, but I can't find anything.
The scrutineer is trying to force me to move it to the rear of the car which to me seems crazy as it takes the cell out of the safety zone of the roll cage and into the crumple zone of the rear of the car.
I don't know enough about the rules or indeed motorsport at this level to try argue the point and to be honest, as my mate correctly pointed out, regardless of what the rules say..if the scrutineer wont pass the car I cant race and even if I do manage to talk my way into keeping the cell where it is, he'll probably nit pick until he can find something to stop me racing anyway.
Thoughts and opinions regards to the safest place would be appreciated.
My compromise would be to have a lid fabricated over the cell where it is.
I don't see any issues as the actual fuel cell is enclosed in a sealed metal (firewall) box. Also:
1) our 120d BMW that we race in endurance (Dubai 24hr, Barcelona 24, Zandvoort 12hr) has the fuel cell in the same configuration
2) we used to run your car (in its previous shell) in the same configuration as your car
3) All of the touring cars that race in the UAE Championship have fuel cells in the same configuration as your car
1) our 120d BMW that we race in endurance (Dubai 24hr, Barcelona 24, Zandvoort 12hr) has the fuel cell in the same configuration
2) we used to run your car (in its previous shell) in the same configuration as your car
3) All of the touring cars that race in the UAE Championship have fuel cells in the same configuration as your car
Are you talking about group N rally rules? if so it looks like the scrutineers are correct as you are not allowed any fittings outside the box
http://www.twerally.co.uk/cs/pdf/techregs.pdf
B 4.5
B 4.6
http://www.twerally.co.uk/cs/pdf/techregs.pdf
B 4.5
B 4.6
Edited by Jetblackonetenth on Sunday 2nd February 09:02
It was amazing, I wasnt really needed for my friend in his radical, i just kept his other car warmed up and moved it around and did the pre-race checks on it.
Those things look and sound great too! The porsches had a big smash in round 2 but i was on my way home by that point.
Our touring car race was EPIC! I will send you the link when it is edited. 5 cars battling it out for 10 laps all wheel to wheel...the rest of the group fell behind a bit.
As for the fuel cells here. The only other 2 cars with fuel cells are a spoon integra that has it integrated into the floorpan (its actually under the floorpan)...and the other integra with a cell which is well expired was made to move it to the rear and to build a firewall, which is easier than it is to do on an EP3 as they have a boot.
Those things look and sound great too! The porsches had a big smash in round 2 but i was on my way home by that point.
Our touring car race was EPIC! I will send you the link when it is edited. 5 cars battling it out for 10 laps all wheel to wheel...the rest of the group fell behind a bit.
As for the fuel cells here. The only other 2 cars with fuel cells are a spoon integra that has it integrated into the floorpan (its actually under the floorpan)...and the other integra with a cell which is well expired was made to move it to the rear and to build a firewall, which is easier than it is to do on an EP3 as they have a boot.
The metal box the fuel cell is in is a firewall the problem is the top where the fittings are.
I had the same on my tuscan. Fabricated an alloy nox that bolts to the top with all the fittings and filler in it. Top comes off the box to fill it. All fuel lines must be braided or covered in the cockpit
G
I had the same on my tuscan. Fabricated an alloy nox that bolts to the top with all the fittings and filler in it. Top comes off the box to fill it. All fuel lines must be braided or covered in the cockpit
G
Looking at it, if you had a dry break filler on the side of your car, and the correct hosing connecting it to the tank, you *should* be fine.
Perhaps their gripe is that the fuel filler is "open" in the car.
With a dry break remote filler, your installation would meet all criteria.
FIA tank in metal box (ie: enclosed by a firewall)
All hosing/fittings to be braided or solid metal pipe.
In which country is the scrutineer demanding this?
Perhaps their gripe is that the fuel filler is "open" in the car.
With a dry break remote filler, your installation would meet all criteria.
FIA tank in metal box (ie: enclosed by a firewall)
All hosing/fittings to be braided or solid metal pipe.
In which country is the scrutineer demanding this?
thunderbelmont said:
Looking at it, if you had a dry break filler on the side of your car, and the correct hosing connecting it to the tank, you *should* be fine.
Perhaps their gripe is that the fuel filler is "open" in the car.
With a dry break remote filler, your installation would meet all criteria.
FIA tank in metal box (ie: enclosed by a firewall)
All hosing/fittings to be braided or solid metal pipe.
In which country is the scrutineer demanding this?
Qatar.Perhaps their gripe is that the fuel filler is "open" in the car.
With a dry break remote filler, your installation would meet all criteria.
FIA tank in metal box (ie: enclosed by a firewall)
All hosing/fittings to be braided or solid metal pipe.
In which country is the scrutineer demanding this?
I'll go read up on dry break fillers.
At the moment I'd like to have a box lid fabricated over the top of the cell with holes and a lockable flap. Its all interesting and I can't push the guy too hard or I might get him off side and given he is the only one who has control over who gets to race I dont want that.
Agree with Mr.belmont.
Regulation K.6 (in part)
"Tank Fillers, Vents and Caps
6. Tank fillers and caps must not protrude beyond the
bodywork or be situated within the driver/passenger
compartment."
You might also refer the scrutineer to K.14.1.2.a
"Tanks should be located so that they
are given maximum protection by the structure of
the vehicle."
I suspect he is concerned about Q.19.1.1
"Technical Regulations
Chassis
19.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler
and the driver/passenger compartment sufficient to
prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel
tank constitutes part of the bulkhead between the
passenger and luggage compartments, an additional
bulkhead must be fitted."
And you need to read the parts of Section J on "Fuel Systems"
And I think you need to look at the location and protection of that battery, right in front of the tank! See Q.5.14.1-2
"Electrical Systems
5.14.1. Have any wet batteries in driver/passenger
compartment enclosed in a securely located leak-proof
container.
5.14.2. Have batteries duly protected to exclude
leakage of acid and to protect terminals from short
circuiting and producing sparks."
I know it's a dry cell battery, but if I were a scrute, I'd insist that was enclosed before your fuel tank!
Hope that helps.
John
Regulation K.6 (in part)
"Tank Fillers, Vents and Caps
6. Tank fillers and caps must not protrude beyond the
bodywork or be situated within the driver/passenger
compartment."
You might also refer the scrutineer to K.14.1.2.a
"Tanks should be located so that they
are given maximum protection by the structure of
the vehicle."
I suspect he is concerned about Q.19.1.1
"Technical Regulations
Chassis
19.1.1. Have a bulkhead between any fuel tank and filler
and the driver/passenger compartment sufficient to
prevent the passage of flame or liquid. Where a fuel
tank constitutes part of the bulkhead between the
passenger and luggage compartments, an additional
bulkhead must be fitted."
And you need to read the parts of Section J on "Fuel Systems"
And I think you need to look at the location and protection of that battery, right in front of the tank! See Q.5.14.1-2
"Electrical Systems
5.14.1. Have any wet batteries in driver/passenger
compartment enclosed in a securely located leak-proof
container.
5.14.2. Have batteries duly protected to exclude
leakage of acid and to protect terminals from short
circuiting and producing sparks."
I know it's a dry cell battery, but if I were a scrute, I'd insist that was enclosed before your fuel tank!
Hope that helps.
John
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Monday 3rd February 10:28
Edited by tapkaJohnD on Monday 3rd February 10:29
Ian for 1 of the races we had to make the alloy box on top of the fuel cell and tape it up to seal the fittings and filler on the 120d, but in barca\dubai this year it was not an issue.
I think spence's BTCC car has the fuel cell with a cover for the fitting/filler in the same place I will take a picture next week.
J
I think spence's BTCC car has the fuel cell with a cover for the fitting/filler in the same place I will take a picture next week.
J
e21jason said:
Ian for 1 of the races we had to make the alloy box on top of the fuel cell and tape it up to seal the fittings and filler on the 120d, but in barca\dubai this year it was not an issue.
I think spence's BTCC car has the fuel cell with a cover for the fitting/filler in the same place I will take a picture next week.
J
OOH if you could take a few pics from every angle that would be great.I think spence's BTCC car has the fuel cell with a cover for the fitting/filler in the same place I will take a picture next week.
J
The scrutineer will probably give me a pass for this weekend and its 2 months to the next race so I will have time to have one like his fabricated if you can get some good pictures
Perhaps you should ask yourself whether it is more important to get a ticket to race from an ignorant/inept scrutineer or to have a fuel tank installation (eg the filler) such that in the event of an accident the chances of being soaked in petrol that will painfully strip the skin off your body will be minimal.
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