Super hot hatches vs Super cars of yesterday
Discussion
Hi All,
I have for many years, dreamed of getting a 911TT (996 model), I know they are not a favourite from the 911 evolution of cars but I like them!
I might be lucky enough to purchase one this year....yippee.
However, a friend of mine, over a pint in the pub put a strong case forward:
"Most modern super hatches, are just as fast !"
So I looked up a few stats, and can only really compare the 0-60 times:
S3 - 4.9
Golf R - 5.2
Merc A45 - 4.6
M135i - 4.8
So the old 911TT will hit 60 in 3.7-4.2 seconds depending on auto/manual or x50/S variant.
Please discuss the difference in performance, between today's super hot hatches vs yesterday's super cars.
IceBoy
I have for many years, dreamed of getting a 911TT (996 model), I know they are not a favourite from the 911 evolution of cars but I like them!
I might be lucky enough to purchase one this year....yippee.
However, a friend of mine, over a pint in the pub put a strong case forward:
"Most modern super hatches, are just as fast !"
So I looked up a few stats, and can only really compare the 0-60 times:
S3 - 4.9
Golf R - 5.2
Merc A45 - 4.6
M135i - 4.8
So the old 911TT will hit 60 in 3.7-4.2 seconds depending on auto/manual or x50/S variant.
Please discuss the difference in performance, between today's super hot hatches vs yesterday's super cars.
IceBoy
The answer is it depends if you want 0-60 performance.
Yes modern cars with launch control, robotised gearboxes and stickier rubber will give much better off the line performance. New M3 with DSG might get under the 4sec bracket for 0-60 for example at half the price of a 911 turbo.
As always it isn't the full picture, you could fit a caterham with massive wheels and tyres and increase its grip and 0-60 performance but what would be the point if it spoiled the handling. Less grip = more fun.
For a lot less than the 911 you could have a tweaked evo or subaru that would leave the 996 in a off the line sprint if that was what you really wanted.
Yes modern cars with launch control, robotised gearboxes and stickier rubber will give much better off the line performance. New M3 with DSG might get under the 4sec bracket for 0-60 for example at half the price of a 911 turbo.
As always it isn't the full picture, you could fit a caterham with massive wheels and tyres and increase its grip and 0-60 performance but what would be the point if it spoiled the handling. Less grip = more fun.
For a lot less than the 911 you could have a tweaked evo or subaru that would leave the 996 in a off the line sprint if that was what you really wanted.
Hot hatches are hot hatches. Supercars look good even when parked.
0-60 is something difficult to play with - there's seldom traction to achieve it and you need to be fairly abusive on the drivetrain too. Supercars just have lots of grunt and better aerodynamics. The hatchbacks will all start to run out of puff from motorway speeds upwards in comparison to the 911 turbo.
The hatchbacks are probably easier to drive.
You rarely see slammed 911 Turbos in the centre fold of Max Power.
0-60 is something difficult to play with - there's seldom traction to achieve it and you need to be fairly abusive on the drivetrain too. Supercars just have lots of grunt and better aerodynamics. The hatchbacks will all start to run out of puff from motorway speeds upwards in comparison to the 911 turbo.
The hatchbacks are probably easier to drive.
You rarely see slammed 911 Turbos in the centre fold of Max Power.
The 0-60 times are largely irrelevant, 40-100 more so imho. Plus of all those the 911 will be a far more engaging car to drive and will be quicker cross country. The overall performance will be leagues above, though as I am sure you are aware (if you are set on buying one and have done your research) are the overall running costs of such a car (especially the Turbo model).
Dedicated sports car or hotted up and fettled shopping car? I know which one I would choose and I aren’t a huge Porsche fan
Dedicated sports car or hotted up and fettled shopping car? I know which one I would choose and I aren’t a huge Porsche fan
Some terribly one dimensional thinking among the "modern hatchbacks are just as fast" brigade. They may well be, but who can seriously get excited about a Golf or an A3? Supercars have an aura, a soul. It doesn't matter how fast they make a modern hatchback or saloon go, they'll never be exciting in the intangible way that an old Porsche or Ferrari is.
currybum said:
Max_Torque said:
In the real world, with policeman, speed limits, and a duty of care to other road users, you'd have to drive at a frankly inappropriate level of commitment in say a 911 turbo to actually "lose" a modern hot hatch.
Not being a driving god at all I know I would be quicker down a B-Road in a Mountune Fiesta ST than I would be in a 911 turbo.IceBoy said:
Hi All,
I have for many years, dreamed of getting a 911TT (996 model), I know they are not a favourite from the 911 evolution of cars but I like them!
I might be lucky enough to purchase one this year....yippee.
However, a friend of mine, over a pint in the pub put a strong case forward:
"Most modern super hatches, are just as fast !"
So I looked up a few stats, and can only really compare the 0-60 times:
S3 - 4.9
Golf R - 5.2
Merc A45 - 4.6
M135i - 4.8
So the old 911TT will hit 60 in 3.7-4.2 seconds depending on auto/manual or x50/S variant.
Please discuss the difference in performance, between today's super hot hatches vs yesterday's super cars.
IceBoy
0-60mph as a single comparison metric is like a broken pencil. Completely pointless!!!I have for many years, dreamed of getting a 911TT (996 model), I know they are not a favourite from the 911 evolution of cars but I like them!
I might be lucky enough to purchase one this year....yippee.
However, a friend of mine, over a pint in the pub put a strong case forward:
"Most modern super hatches, are just as fast !"
So I looked up a few stats, and can only really compare the 0-60 times:
S3 - 4.9
Golf R - 5.2
Merc A45 - 4.6
M135i - 4.8
So the old 911TT will hit 60 in 3.7-4.2 seconds depending on auto/manual or x50/S variant.
Please discuss the difference in performance, between today's super hot hatches vs yesterday's super cars.
IceBoy
I think you should have counter asked your friend:
"do you like having to properly drive a car or are you quite content with the car doing everything for you?"
I think that's more the crux here.
Having driven both the E92 M3 and the Lotus Evora SR (there is a point here), the M3 was incredible at what it did but I knew that the electronics were hugely flattering my driving skill and with them off it would have been quite terrifying. The Evora had less of the computer trickery and I had to really think about what I was doing with it, the amazingly responsive steering and chasis helped.
"do you like having to properly drive a car or are you quite content with the car doing everything for you?"
I think that's more the crux here.
Having driven both the E92 M3 and the Lotus Evora SR (there is a point here), the M3 was incredible at what it did but I knew that the electronics were hugely flattering my driving skill and with them off it would have been quite terrifying. The Evora had less of the computer trickery and I had to really think about what I was doing with it, the amazingly responsive steering and chasis helped.
A Class AMG or the hottest Golf that is coming soon would be a fairer comparison if just comparing 0-60, both would be around 4.3 seconds. The first 996 turbo did 0-60 in 4.2 seconds? That's pretty close even if it is a mostly pointless measurement.
As others have mentioned I'd be interested in comparing in gear acceleration as that is more useful. I would expect the 911 to fade less on a track day, but I'd rather have a GT3 than a Turbo if that was your goal for obvious reasons.
The new hatch is going to be much cheaper to run but I would expect the 911 to host most of its value if you look after it and keep the mileage down.
As others have mentioned I'd be interested in comparing in gear acceleration as that is more useful. I would expect the 911 to fade less on a track day, but I'd rather have a GT3 than a Turbo if that was your goal for obvious reasons.
The new hatch is going to be much cheaper to run but I would expect the 911 to host most of its value if you look after it and keep the mileage down.
In the 0-60 sprint the times might be similar but overall the level of performance is massively different, especially when you take into account high speed stability & braking
was it Evo that compared the RS3 etc against an Enzo cross country? admittedly the Enzo is a hypercar and leagues ahead of the 911 but it trounced the RS3 etc on a route designed to give the hatches the advantage
was it Evo that compared the RS3 etc against an Enzo cross country? admittedly the Enzo is a hypercar and leagues ahead of the 911 but it trounced the RS3 etc on a route designed to give the hatches the advantage
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