Eco regulations are improving cars?

[McWigglebum4th]

By adding lightness.

Modern regulations are forcing manufacturers to make their cars more eco friendly and this is forcing them towards efficiency.

And the best way to get efficiency is to add lightness


Lightness also makes a car faster and better to drive.


So is eco helping us?

[Steffan]

In a word, Yes. As engine efficiencies has been driven up to achieve low emissions so weight reduction will also benefit speed performance and handling. I do wonder if ally bodies will return. On this occasion Eco is good.

[grumbledoak]

Only in one way, right now, and randomly so. Mostly it is a bunch of superstitious mumbo jumbo that allows politicians to kick us in whatever direction lines their own pockets the most. Overall, I'm not cheering.

[TheRoadWarrior]

I'm not sure I agree, despite what Hammond said on TG I'm not convinced 'eco rules' are giving us lighter, more nimble handling cars.

Sure the 4C has a carbon tub and is lightweight, good handling etc, but you don't need to make a car light to give good eco credentials - just give it a crappy underpowered engine.

Making a car handle, giving the driver good feedback, making it feel 'alive'; that's all stuff that costs money to develop, causes compromises else where and requires a customer that really wants these things.

Most don't.

[Northernchimp]

1.6 diesel 1500kg hatch returning the same MPG as a 1980s diesel AX. I sometimes wonder what the AX weight would do with the same engine. If lightness is is the next pursuit, hopefully we'll find out shortly and, if they can sort out DPF/injector/EGR issues, it can only be a good thing.

[wemorgan]

Making cars lighter also uses less material and saves the OEM money. OEM love that.

[V8Ford]

Just a question, how do you add lightness?

Far easier to remove weight surely...

I'm just off to add some emptiness to my cup of tea.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Colin Chapman must be grinning in his grave these days, bless him. His legacy finally coming true - another visionary well ahead of his time.

[Steffan]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Colin Chapman must be grinning in his grave these days, bless him. His legacy finally coming true - another visionary well ahead of his time.

Given the consequences from the events that would have occurred (Delorean collapse missing millions et al) had his untimely death not preceded them then, much as I did admire the exceptional abilities of ACBC in racing car design, there would have been an almighty row and serious repercussions. He was a flawed genius whose untimely death prevented a lot of investigation. However he was undoubtedly the most able and energetic racing car designer of the 20th century. Not a bad achievement. And he made my first car a Lotus Super Seven Big Valve Twin Cam in 1963. He personally sold it as a kit to me in 1963. Those were the days!

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Steffan said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Colin Chapman must be grinning in his grave these days, bless him. His legacy finally coming true - another visionary well ahead of his time.

Given the consequences from the events that would have occurred (Delorean collapse missing millions et al) had his untimely death not preceded them then, much as I did admire the exceptional abilities of ACBC in racing car design, there would have been an almighty row and serious repercussions. He was a flawed genius whose untimely death prevented a lot of investigation. However he was undoubtedly the most able and energetic racing car designer of the 20th century. Not a bad achievement. And he made my first car a Lotus Super Seven Big Valve Twin Cam in 1963. He personally sold it as a kit to me in 1963. Those were the days!

Heh, you're correct there. A shame that someone with such great ideas, and work ethic, managed to become involved in such a thing. But then, we've seen many instances of great people sometimes going bananas, eh?!

A bit O/T, but similarly with JD. Another shame that such an amazing project that promised so much, went such a way.


And wow - you met Chapman did you? How cool! I know it's a stretch to think back that far ( ) but can you remember what he was like and that? Would be great to hear your impression and the story

[Crafty_]

I'd say no, prime example are DPFs - they clog up and then need to do a regen to clear, which imposes restrictions on how the car can be used. If the regen fails a certain number of times its off to the garage, if they can't clear it then its open your wallet for a nice hefty bill.

Its a stupid situation. Imagine having a TV where every 20 hours of viewing means you need to site with the volume at 27 whilst it plays waltzing matilda and showing a bright yellow screen or the thing packs up. It wouldn't be acceptable so why is it with a car?

The weight thing is bks too, cars are only getting lighter because over the last 10 years or so they've been putting on more and more weight.

ETA: And lets not get on to EGR valves...

[Superhoop]

wemorgan said:

Making cars lighter also uses less material and saves the OEM money. OEM love that.

Not exactly... Yes they use less metal, however; to retain the strength of the body structure they need to use more expensive, high strength steel

[Steffan]

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Steffan said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Colin Chapman must be grinning in his grave these days, bless him. His legacy finally coming true - another visionary well ahead of his time.

Given the consequences from the events that would have occurred (Delorean collapse missing millions et al) had his untimely death not preceded them then, much as I did admire the exceptional abilities of ACBC in racing car design, there would have been an almighty row and serious repercussions. He was a flawed genius whose untimely death prevented a lot of investigation. However he was undoubtedly the most able and energetic racing car designer of the 20th century. Not a bad achievement. And he made my first car a Lotus Super Seven Big Valve Twin Cam in 1963. He personally sold it as a kit to me in 1963. Those were the days!

Heh, you're correct there. A shame that someone with such great ideas, and work ethic, managed to become involved in such a thing. But then, we've seen many instances of great people sometimes going bananas, eh?!

A bit O/T, but similarly with JD. Another shame that such an amazing project that promised so much, went such a way.


And wow - you met Chapman did you? How cool! I know it's a stretch to think back that far ( ) but can you remember what he was like and that? Would be great to hear your impression and the story

Down to my Father who was an Archdeacon in the Cof E and very well connected with car manufacturers in his industrial work (and lots of other professions)! I owe so much to my parents who were utterly exemplary in everything (Mother was a Head Teacher) that I really could not fail despite doing my rebellious best. He also arranged childhood visits to BSA, Velocette, Morgan, Austin, Morris Rover Rolls Royce etc etc never met another man like him. I was always dotty about everything mechanical but particularly cars. Parents bought me that car as my 17th birthday present. I built it (with an retired RAF Air Vice Marshal as supervisor insisted upon by guess who) and the car went like a dream.

I wrote it off less than 12 months later(fool that I am) going far too fast over a hump back bridge we sailed into the air over the hedge landed in a ploughed field car somersaulted end over end disintegrated (they did that typical Lotus) and I was miraculously uninjured by being thrown clear. From that point on I have built umpteen (lost count) kit cars including Duttons (bought from Tim Dutton Wooley) Robin Hoods. Sylva's (Jeremy Phillips) Moss Monaco, Mamba, Malvern (Cowperthwaite) Midge (Cowperthwaite) Vindicators (Roger Lea latterly John Butler) Locusts. Locosts, TJ Locosts (Cowperthwaite) Ron Champion creations and Haynes Best. Plus many many more. Still at it currently I own multiples IVA'ing at least five this year. My output exceeds some small manufacturers. One man band (for fun I am really a retired Chartered Accountant) All hobby trading by agreement. And as this epiphany confirms, I am completely huts. But happy.

[Ray Luxury-Yacht]

Steffan said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Steffan said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

Colin Chapman must be grinning in his grave these days, bless him. His legacy finally coming true - another visionary well ahead of his time.

Given the consequences from the events that would have occurred (Delorean collapse missing millions et al) had his untimely death not preceded them then, much as I did admire the exceptional abilities of ACBC in racing car design, there would have been an almighty row and serious repercussions. He was a flawed genius whose untimely death prevented a lot of investigation. However he was undoubtedly the most able and energetic racing car designer of the 20th century. Not a bad achievement. And he made my first car a Lotus Super Seven Big Valve Twin Cam in 1963. He personally sold it as a kit to me in 1963. Those were the days!

Heh, you're correct there. A shame that someone with such great ideas, and work ethic, managed to become involved in such a thing. But then, we've seen many instances of great people sometimes going bananas, eh?!

A bit O/T, but similarly with JD. Another shame that such an amazing project that promised so much, went such a way.


And wow - you met Chapman did you? How cool! I know it's a stretch to think back that far ( ) but can you remember what he was like and that? Would be great to hear your impression and the story

Down to my Father who was an Archdeacon in the Cof E and very well connected with car manufacturers in his industrial work (and lots of other professions)! I owe so much to my parents who were utterly exemplary in everything (Mother was a Head Teacher) that I really could not fail despite doing my rebellious best. He also arranged childhood visits to BSA, Velocette, Morgan, Austin, Morris Rover Rolls Royce etc etc never met another man like him. I was always dotty about everything mechanical but particularly cars. Parents bought me that car as my 17th birthday present. I built it (with an retired RAF Air Vice Marshal as supervisor insisted upon by guess who) and the car went like a dream.

I wrote it off less than 12 months later(fool that I am) going far too fast over a hump back bridge we sailed into the air over the hedge landed in a ploughed field car somersaulted end over end disintegrated (they did that typical Lotus) and I was miraculously uninjured by being thrown clear. From that point on I have built umpteen (lost count) kit cars including Duttons (bought from Tim Dutton Wooley) Robin Hoods. Sylva's (Jeremy Phillips) Moss Monaco, Mamba, Malvern (Cowperthwaite) Midge (Cowperthwaite) Vindicators (Roger Lea latterly John Butler) Locusts. Locosts, TJ Locosts (Cowperthwaite) Ron Champion creations and Haynes Best. Plus many many more. Still at it currently I own multiples IVA'ing at least five this year. My output exceeds some small manufacturers. One man band (for fun I am really a retired Chartered Accountant) All hobby trading by agreement. And as this epiphany confirms, I am completely huts. But happy.

Heheh, cool story, thanks! And your PH credentials FAR outweigh mine...I feel a bit inadequate now, lol!

Keep the faith, you fruitcake!

[Raman Kandola]

Its going to improve handling and mpg, . Its quite ridiculous that a new corsa weighs about the same as my mk4 golf, i cant really see a downside tbh

[joewilliams]

The 1.6 eco petrol turbo I borrowed last week costs the same to run over 20k miles annually as the 2.0 diesel I'm getting rid of, and is ridiculously nicer to drive. I'll take that

[MitchT]

McWigglebum4th said:

Modern regulations are forcing manufacturers to make their cars more eco friendly and this is forcing them towards efficiency.

And the best way to get efficiency is to add lightness

Lightness also makes a car faster and better to drive.

So is eco helping us?

Not really, because they're adding efficiency by using ridiculously complicated computerised trickery which is fragile and unreliable and costs a fortune to fix ... not because it actually costs a fortune to fix, but because it's all software-based so they can charge what they want when it goes wrong because they're the only ones with the compatible equipment.

Cars are actually getting taller and fatter and, frankly, uglier. I'd prefer simple engineering in small, light cars.

[Steffan]

MitchT said:

McWigglebum4th said:

Modern regulations are forcing manufacturers to make their cars more eco friendly and this is forcing them towards efficiency.

And the best way to get efficiency is to add lightness

Lightness also makes a car faster and better to drive.

So is eco helping us?

Not really, because they're adding efficiency by using ridiculously complicated computerised trickery which is fragile and unreliable and costs a fortune to fix ... not because it actually costs a fortune to fix, but because it's all software-based so they can charge what they want when it goes wrong because they're the only ones with the compatible equipment.

Cars are actually getting taller and fatter and, frankly, uglier. I'd prefer simple engineering in small, light cars.

I certainly think there is a lot in the reminder that the car manufacturers are the only ones with control of the software. As you suggest this is going to get very expensive to repair. I can see ECU failure and associated electronic failures velcoming uneconomic to fix. Such built in obsolescence means two dips into the money trough for car makers.

[Stick Legs]

Yes because humans are intrinsically lazy.

The motor car was essentially 'sorted' by the early 1990's. If you were given a 'as new' Ford Sierra GLSi 2.0 Saphirre you could use it as a car in the modern world no problem what so ever.
Comforts? A/C, electric windows, limited wind noise, reasonable stereo, tinted glass. Yup, all there.
Safety? ABS, seat belts, good visibility, reasonable crash protection, air bags were making headway into the mass market and would be easy to incorporate in the Sierra if req.
Performance? Not going to set the world alight but 8.5 to 60 and 125 top end could certainly keep up!
Economy? 30mpg, quite acceptable

So why try harder? Cars get faster and faster but without the pressure of environmental concerns (misplaced or not) the easy route of bigger displacement and more power would have been the route taken. The customer wants cheap cars, they also count motoring in a cost per mile basis weather consciously or unconsciously , so if petrol / diesel remain cheap then why pay more for a innovative solution to a non-problem?

The environmental & EuroNCAP pressures have created fast, economical, safe and mostly better cars than before.

Look at the American cars of the 1960's through early 1970's, cheap fuel and customer driven design...

[eldar]

Steffan said:

I certainly think there is a lot in the reminder that the car manufacturers are the only ones with control of the software. As you suggest this is going to get very expensive to repair. I can see ECU failure and associated electronic failures velcoming uneconomic to fix. Such built in obsolescence means two dips into the money trough for car makers.

I think you underestimate the ingenuity of the man in a shed. Reverse engineer the canbus stuff, add a few clever lines of code and replace your ECU with a pi. As soon as it becomes as profitable as hacking there will be a decent supply of cheap bits. Supply and demand.

Velcoming? Are you buying a BMW