991 Porsche GT3 RS to Offer Manual Transmission?!?!
Discussion
Sorry not been on for a bit so don't know if reposted...
http://view.internetbrandsauto.com/?j=fe851c70736c...
http://view.internetbrandsauto.com/?j=fe851c70736c...
It won't happen. The VW group are not interested in enthusiasts who tend to keep their cars longer and don't buy into the marketing hype quite so easily. Most new markets have no interest in a manual gear change. They generally buy these cars as they would a Louis Vuitton bag and change cars when the new faster better product replaces it. Far more profitable for the VW group and like any well run business, profit always comes first. Porsche, these days have become more of a status symbol than a company making cars for enthusiasts. Having had three myself, including a GT3, i can't see myself buying another. I have driven a PDK. It's very impressive and on a track it makes sense. On a road, I like the challenge of perfecting gear changes and having to use skill. You don't drive ten tenths on the road, so the tactility of a manual change creates a closer connection to the user and car without the need to drive like a lunatic to enjoy it. Shame but that's the world we live in.
Mind you, I would love to be proved wrong!
Mind you, I would love to be proved wrong!
Nick644 said:
It won't happen. The VW group are not interested in enthusiasts who tend to keep their cars longer and don't buy into the marketing hype quite so easily. Most new markets have no interest in a manual gear change. They generally buy these cars as they would a Louis Vuitton bag and change cars when the new faster better product replaces it. Far more profitable for the VW group and like any well run business, profit always comes first. Porsche, these days have become more of a status symbol than a company making cars for enthusiasts. Having had three myself, including a GT3, i can't see myself buying another. I have driven a PDK. It's very impressive and on a track it makes sense. On a road, I like the challenge of perfecting gear changes and having to use skill. You don't drive ten tenths on the road, so the tactility of a manual change creates a closer connection to the user and car without the need to drive like a lunatic to enjoy it. Shame but that's the world we live in.
Mind you, I would love to be proved wrong!
If there was enough demand for a manual they would offer it. But there probably isn't anymore and there are plenty of true enthusiasts who actually prefer PDK type boxes, at least on contemporary cars. In reality, it makes sense both on and off track, but I do get your point about the "skill/challenge/connection" of a manual gearbox. Although most contemporary manual gearboxes require little effort compared to older classics and are certainly a lesser challenge. Mind you, I would love to be proved wrong!
I've been heel & toeing for years, to the point were it is totally subconscious anyway. So time to move on to something different that is frankly better in all respects. But I still drive an old-school classic 911 now and then to keep my hand in
BTW Porsche became a status symbol a long long time ago. It has absolutely nothing to do with manual gearboxes being phased out.
I've always been an advocate that true sports cars should have a manual gearbox and cruisers are ok with an automatic gearbox. I most certainly would not want a manual gearbox in my Bentley.
Two weeks ago a good mate popped round with his newly purchased Nissan GTR with a 720bhp litchfield conversion. Now Malcolm has also been an advocate of the manual gearbox. His 996TT Cab being just so. He felt that the paddle shift in the GTR was a complete waste of time and they might as well just run it as a full auto.
I had a drive of it and had to agree. On the road (damp at the time) the acceleration was so ferocious that your concentration was solely focused upon potential hazards that thinking about having to change gear was just something you could do without.
I suggested that on a circuit the paddles might come into their own as you have a lot less to worry about.
I must admit it did make me think about manual gearboxes in a different light. Agreed that swapping cogs in a 231bhp 3.2 Carrera is part of the enjoyment and sense of occasion. But in modern day cars that have the performance of the star ship enterprise I'm not so sure anymore
.
Two weeks ago a good mate popped round with his newly purchased Nissan GTR with a 720bhp litchfield conversion. Now Malcolm has also been an advocate of the manual gearbox. His 996TT Cab being just so. He felt that the paddle shift in the GTR was a complete waste of time and they might as well just run it as a full auto.
I had a drive of it and had to agree. On the road (damp at the time) the acceleration was so ferocious that your concentration was solely focused upon potential hazards that thinking about having to change gear was just something you could do without.
I suggested that on a circuit the paddles might come into their own as you have a lot less to worry about.
I must admit it did make me think about manual gearboxes in a different light. Agreed that swapping cogs in a 231bhp 3.2 Carrera is part of the enjoyment and sense of occasion. But in modern day cars that have the performance of the star ship enterprise I'm not so sure anymore
. anonymous said:
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I don't think it is that simple. With the new GT3 engineered as a PDK car you cannot simply change that to a manual drivetrain. Both racing and street cars are going in the direction of PDK so all the development would be supporting this. To do a limited run of manual cars would completely non-economical and a step back in time. Im a great advocate of manual gearboxes and would not swap my GT3 RS 4.0 for anything else in this world but PDK is called progress an the buyers seem to want it that way. The big problem i have with PDK or paddle shift sports cars in general is that you need to drive at warp speeds to arrive at a level of satisfaction and enjoyment you would otherwise be getting at much lower speeds in manual cars. I love my GT3 RS 4.0 for what it is, fully recognising that any new PDK equipped Porsche will probably be faster in the real world as I cannot shift gears more efficiently than any PDK equipped car regardless of horsepower and/or configuration.
hornbaek said:
.... fully recognising that any new PDK equipped Porsche will probably be faster in the real world as I cannot shift gears more efficiently than any PDK equipped car regardless of horsepower and/or configuration.
I dont think anybody disputes this. Computers are faster than humans. They just are.What other controls should we then hand over?
anonymous said:
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I have never really understood this argument! Surely in essence a PDK is just a manual gearbox with a remotely actuated gear change. OK OK, I know that Porsche introduce all sorts of safeguards in preventing over revs, and the software taking over etc and the next gear is preselected. BUT surely rather than retrofit a manual gearbox, surely the purist can obtain complete control if Porsche just changed the software, to NOT take over at any time. I run a Radical race car with paddle shifts, and all it has is a pneumatic actuator that moves the gear lever (OK it does prevent downshifts at too high revs) - simples or is that just too easy anonymous said:
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I agree.Only a manual can offer complete control. One of my biggest problems with the PDK was when approaching a roundabout. You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times.
Its distracting and makes the whole process and arduous task. Where as in a manual you can heel and toe directly from 6th to 2nd and you know exactly what gear you are in just by having your hand on the stick.
The same goes for overtaking as you cant jump gears. Some may say the kick down function does this for you but I found it doesn't always select the gear you want and 9 time out of 10 you just end up bouncing into the limiter.
I've never been convinced that PDK is that brilliant at changes anyway (except at high revs, where it is brilliant and way better than I would be). At normal speeds, I'm not persuaded that it is smoother than a good manual driver - e.g.changing down a couple of gears in town or slowish country driving, it's not super smooth.
vallance5 said:
I agree.
Only a manual can offer complete control. One of my biggest problems with the PDK was when approaching a roundabout. You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times.
Its distracting and makes the whole process and arduous task. Where as in a manual you can heel and toe directly from 6th to 2nd and you know exactly what gear you are in just by having your hand on the stick.
The same goes for overtaking as you cant jump gears. Some may say the kick down function does this for you but I found it doesn't always select the gear you want and 9 time out of 10 you just end up bouncing into the limiter.
In the PDK-S you could get from 6th to 2nd quicker than with a manual change...Only a manual can offer complete control. One of my biggest problems with the PDK was when approaching a roundabout. You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times.
Its distracting and makes the whole process and arduous task. Where as in a manual you can heel and toe directly from 6th to 2nd and you know exactly what gear you are in just by having your hand on the stick.
The same goes for overtaking as you cant jump gears. Some may say the kick down function does this for you but I found it doesn't always select the gear you want and 9 time out of 10 you just end up bouncing into the limiter.
ORD said:
I've never been convinced that PDK is that brilliant at changes anyway (except at high revs, where it is brilliant and way better than I would be). At normal speeds, I'm not persuaded that it is smoother than a good manual driver - e.g.changing down a couple of gears in town or slowish country driving, it's not super smooth.
Have to disagree. I run a 991 a with Pdk for a year and 8k miles on all types of roads and the box was perfect. Smooth, smart, quick. Really it's amazing. And no a good driver would not be as smooth. For a start he would not have two clutches and 3 feet to operate them :-)vallance5 said:
You would be in 7th and to get to 2nd you have to bounce down all the gears while keeping any eye on the digital display to make sure its in the right gear or you have clicked the paddle 5 times.
don't you just hold the down shift pedal and the PDK goes to lowest possible gear?vallance5 said:
SFO said:
don't you just hold the down shift pedal and the PDK goes to lowest possible gear?
Still not complete control as you don't know what the lowest possible gear is going to be.Popolou said:
Will it not be the right gear for the right road/engine speed nonetheless? Or if it's such a concern, a hold down then a shift up in quick succession?
No because I might not want to enter a roundabout in the lowest possible gear with the engine screaming at the top of the rev range.Having to then quickly up shift highlights the fact the car has chosen the wrong gear and therefore isn't doing exactly as I want. Seems a bit of a work around for a problem you wouldn't have in a manual car.
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