apex vs rival vs force vs red
Discussion
I've been running a mix of these this year, full apex on my cx, rival on my spare winter bike, force with a red crank on my summer.
Looking at some replacements and potentially upgrades for the summer bike but thinking about it, I'm not really seeing or feeling much difference. My cx with (admittedly perfectly set up) apes seems to run as nicely as the force setup. Perhaps slightly different feel on shifting but not really "worse" per se.
Does anyone with any experience of red feel its worth the upgrade from force?
Alternately is there any real benefit in rival to keep buying rival parts instead of just replacing with apex as and when (its cheaper and doesn't feel worse?)
Looking at some replacements and potentially upgrades for the summer bike but thinking about it, I'm not really seeing or feeling much difference. My cx with (admittedly perfectly set up) apes seems to run as nicely as the force setup. Perhaps slightly different feel on shifting but not really "worse" per se.
Does anyone with any experience of red feel its worth the upgrade from force?
Alternately is there any real benefit in rival to keep buying rival parts instead of just replacing with apex as and when (its cheaper and doesn't feel worse?)
yonex said:
I heard that new Force is the previous gen Red and that it all filters down. Overall I think Red shifters are slightly more robust?
The current Force group is Force 22 isn't it with a 12sp cassette? I currently have Force 10sp and I've ridden Rival and I struggled to tell the difference between the two as far as shifting was concerned. I though the Force brakes were better and I think Red and Force look much better than the Apex/Rival components. Bot sure about the ropbust part. The red shifters will be lighter and that may not lend its self to being more robust.
Shimano also do the filtering down of groupsets.
SRAM are meant to launching their electronic groupo this year. I'd like to have a go at that
Barchettaman said:
Alberto Contador rode APEX in the Giro d´Italia a few years ago.
One could make a strong argument that if Apex is good enough for a GC winner on a Grand Tour stage, then your Force/Red mix on your summer bike is probably good enough for you.
Best of luck whatever you decide.
Such a silly argument.One could make a strong argument that if Apex is good enough for a GC winner on a Grand Tour stage, then your Force/Red mix on your summer bike is probably good enough for you.
Best of luck whatever you decide.
For the benefit of everyone else, he used an apex rear derailleur because that allowed him to use a wider cassette. (Apex wifli came in before Rival, Force or Red)
I have Force with Red cranks on my Ti bike and it has always worked faultlessly for me, brakes are strong with good modulation, indexing has always been bang on and overall it feels solid (if a little 'industrial). If I were going to 'upgrade' it then I would be looking to a Campy groupset.
Mate has full Red on his Cervelo and has had nothing but issues with the front mech, rest of the groupo has been fine but issues with the front mech have detracted from the overall experience.
FWIW I would stick with Force/Red and look to spend your upgrade budget on wheels, or a nice set of carbon bars/stem/seat-post (assuming you are not already 'wearing' them).
Or, keep it in the bank for when you really need it.......
Mate has full Red on his Cervelo and has had nothing but issues with the front mech, rest of the groupo has been fine but issues with the front mech have detracted from the overall experience.
FWIW I would stick with Force/Red and look to spend your upgrade budget on wheels, or a nice set of carbon bars/stem/seat-post (assuming you are not already 'wearing' them).
Or, keep it in the bank for when you really need it.......
I've just removed my Apex rear mech and 1050 cassette to make way for a an OG1090 (Red) cassette and Force rear mech.
The shifting is much better but I think that comes from a combination of now having a short cage mech and a far closer set of gear ratios. However, replacing the cable and cleaning\lubing the outer probably made the biggest difference.
With the mech the Force feels higher quality for sure. It was also very easy to set up. The cassette however is a real piece of engineering. Not that it makes any real difference to me (I did only pay £50 for mine, £15 more than an Ultegra unit). It's milled from a single billet of tool grade steel. The difference in quality from the outgoing 1050 is night and day. I can see it lasting far longer than a cheaper unit.
My advice would still be to change the cable and outer on all the bikes and see if you can notice a difference then. I suspect over the whole process you will. But it wont be by much.
The shifting is much better but I think that comes from a combination of now having a short cage mech and a far closer set of gear ratios. However, replacing the cable and cleaning\lubing the outer probably made the biggest difference.
With the mech the Force feels higher quality for sure. It was also very easy to set up. The cassette however is a real piece of engineering. Not that it makes any real difference to me (I did only pay £50 for mine, £15 more than an Ultegra unit). It's milled from a single billet of tool grade steel. The difference in quality from the outgoing 1050 is night and day. I can see it lasting far longer than a cheaper unit.
My advice would still be to change the cable and outer on all the bikes and see if you can notice a difference then. I suspect over the whole process you will. But it wont be by much.
Dixie said:
I've just removed my Apex rear mech and 1050 cassette to make way for a an OG1090 (Red) cassette and Force rear mech.
The shifting is much better but I think that comes from a combination of now having a short cage mech and a far closer set of gear ratios. However, replacing the cable and cleaning\lubing the outer probably made the biggest difference.
With the mech the Force feels higher quality for sure. It was also very easy to set up. The cassette however is a real piece of engineering. Not that it makes any real difference to me (I did only pay £50 for mine, £15 more than an Ultegra unit). It's milled from a single billet of tool grade steel. The difference in quality from the outgoing 1050 is night and day. I can see it lasting far longer than a cheaper unit.
My advice would still be to change the cable and outer on all the bikes and see if you can notice a difference then. I suspect over the whole process you will. But it wont be by much.
I've read that the force cassette is quite noisy. How have you found it? I currently run a basic 1050 cassette as I didn't want to pay the extra for the Force cassette and I can't really tell the difference between the 1050 and the old HG80 that I had on it before. The shifting is much better but I think that comes from a combination of now having a short cage mech and a far closer set of gear ratios. However, replacing the cable and cleaning\lubing the outer probably made the biggest difference.
With the mech the Force feels higher quality for sure. It was also very easy to set up. The cassette however is a real piece of engineering. Not that it makes any real difference to me (I did only pay £50 for mine, £15 more than an Ultegra unit). It's milled from a single billet of tool grade steel. The difference in quality from the outgoing 1050 is night and day. I can see it lasting far longer than a cheaper unit.
My advice would still be to change the cable and outer on all the bikes and see if you can notice a difference then. I suspect over the whole process you will. But it wont be by much.
The Force cassette I guess would be the 1070. I skipped over it and went straight to the 1090.
Currently everything is super smooth and very quite. But everything is very clean or new. The cassette and chain (also 1090 £18 delivered from ebay!) were new. The rear mech was used but has been cleaned to within an inch of it's life. It didn't seen to have had much use either. I have read somewhere that the OG1090 is a particularly quite cassette.
Shifting is very good now. But that's partly due to it being a 11-23 so theres not a lot of a step in the gear sizes. The 1050 was a 11-32 so the bigger gears made some racket when shifting.
I got the cassette from ebay for £51. It's unused but was taken off a bike so no box. The seller had 0 feedback and looked a little dodgy (forgot to check before I bid). I was just about to buy an Ultegra one (considered the best at the price range so i'm told) at £35. For the extra £16 it was worth it for the Red one. Not sure i'd want to be spending £100+ on one.
Currently everything is super smooth and very quite. But everything is very clean or new. The cassette and chain (also 1090 £18 delivered from ebay!) were new. The rear mech was used but has been cleaned to within an inch of it's life. It didn't seen to have had much use either. I have read somewhere that the OG1090 is a particularly quite cassette.
Shifting is very good now. But that's partly due to it being a 11-23 so theres not a lot of a step in the gear sizes. The 1050 was a 11-32 so the bigger gears made some racket when shifting.
I got the cassette from ebay for £51. It's unused but was taken off a bike so no box. The seller had 0 feedback and looked a little dodgy (forgot to check before I bid). I was just about to buy an Ultegra one (considered the best at the price range so i'm told) at £35. For the extra £16 it was worth it for the Red one. Not sure i'd want to be spending £100+ on one.
Disco You said:
Such a silly argument.
For the benefit of everyone else, he used an apex rear derailleur because that allowed him to use a wider cassette (which was also Apex)
Edited for accuracy.For the benefit of everyone else, he used an apex rear derailleur because that allowed him to use a wider cassette (which was also Apex)
Cameron Mayer and other Astana riders also used this set up.
Bottom line is that Apex is GT tested, well, the back end of the gruppo at least!
Also, around this time IIRC the pro teams riding SRAM would swap in the Force front derailleur as it was more reliable than the Red, so gruppo hierachy is not necessarily an indication of real world performance.
The bottom line is that Apex - with a posh upgrade to the cable/housing set - is the best value 10-speed road drivetrain you can buy. Considerably cheaper than 105 and lighter than Ultegra. It's the bargain of the century.
Barchettaman said:
The bottom line is that Apex - with a posh upgrade to the cable/housing set - is the best value 10-speed road drivetrain you can buy. Considerably cheaper than 105 and lighter than Ultegra. It's the bargain of the century.
The best prices are 105 for £300 (ribble) and apex £335 (merlin).A lot of interesting info and opinions in this thread, thanks :-)
Apex wifli rear mech and cassette are on - courtesy of a halfords offer at under £70 for the pair. The man maths said I might as well replace the mech with wifli if I was putting a new one on, and then if I was putting a wifli mech on, why wouldn't I get another 11-32 cassette.
Hills? What hills?
Admittedly this means I've now put a complete new group set on my cheap backup "use it while my cx is in for warranty repairs" bike. Its not working out so cheap.
I miss my boardman cx lol. I love that bike...
Apex wifli rear mech and cassette are on - courtesy of a halfords offer at under £70 for the pair. The man maths said I might as well replace the mech with wifli if I was putting a new one on, and then if I was putting a wifli mech on, why wouldn't I get another 11-32 cassette.
Hills? What hills?
Admittedly this means I've now put a complete new group set on my cheap backup "use it while my cx is in for warranty repairs" bike. Its not working out so cheap.
I miss my boardman cx lol. I love that bike...
Disco You said:
Barchettaman said:
The bottom line is that Apex - with a posh upgrade to the cable/housing set - is the best value 10-speed road drivetrain you can buy. Considerably cheaper than 105 and lighter than Ultegra. It's the bargain of the century.
The best prices are 105 for £300 (ribble) and apex £335 (merlin).
te)Discounting internet mistrust of the product, as most of it comes from people who have never tried and just dismiss it out of hand, what were your issues and which end of their product range was it from? (just to make sure this isn't apples vs oranges)
I've done 2,000 miles on microshift white and it only ever has given me one issue and that was 1 mile into it's maiden voyage and was down to a nut not being tightened/threadlocked, it's precise, never misses a shift, the hood ergonomics are fine, my only negative is that the lever action is a little heavy.
edit to add, I have Ultegra 6800 on the other bike and the Microshift isn't in the same league despite the weight comparrison, the Ult is so smooth you sometime wonder if it shifted, wheras the Micro gives an audible clack every shift (again to avoid apples vs oranges)
OP sorry for derail as the is a SPAM thread.
I've done 2,000 miles on microshift white and it only ever has given me one issue and that was 1 mile into it's maiden voyage and was down to a nut not being tightened/threadlocked, it's precise, never misses a shift, the hood ergonomics are fine, my only negative is that the lever action is a little heavy.
edit to add, I have Ultegra 6800 on the other bike and the Microshift isn't in the same league despite the weight comparrison, the Ult is so smooth you sometime wonder if it shifted, wheras the Micro gives an audible clack every shift (again to avoid apples vs oranges)
OP sorry for derail as the is a SPAM thread.
Edited by Jayfish on Sunday 23 February 21:59
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