RE: Ringside Seat: Lap time predictions
Friday 21st February 2014
The only thing that's 100 per cent predictable about Nurburgring lap times is that the manufacturers will be chasing them. In fact, it's so obvious that I'm going to have a punt at predicting the battles that will be sparking forum furore around the world in 2014.
Honda are clear on its 'ring intentions!Megane vs. Civic
Perhaps the most blatant statement of intent about obliterating 'ring records in 2014 was issued by Honda last year. It's working on the turbocharged VTEC Civic Type R, and they even got a few development days in before the end of the season. What not so many people know are the rumours in Nurburg about another turbocharged hatchback that might well eat the Civic for lunch...
Z06 v TA is the battle of 600hp US coupesVette vs. Viper
It's the American Derby that will set the yankland forums on fire. For the true "fans", you can't like both Corvettes and Vipers. You can't like both GM and Chrysler. Oh no. It's like the Aussies with Holden and Ford.
There has to be a lap time, right?LaFerrari vs. 918 vs. P1
This was the irrelevant and over-hyped ménage a trois that dominated so many internet headlines last year. And believe me, the chances are it might just do it all again this year. God help us. Why?
We know what it has to beat...So what should Ferrari do? Come here, spend tens of thousands of euros per week to go home with a 6-minute-something lap time, only to be bamboozled by McLaren releasing an even faster lap time?
Ringside Seat: Lap time predictions
Vette v Viper is just the start of this year's lap time battles
Honda are clear on its 'ring intentions!
Perhaps the most blatant statement of intent about obliterating 'ring records in 2014 was issued by Honda last year. It's working on the turbocharged VTEC Civic Type R, and they even got a few development days in before the end of the season. What not so many people know are the rumours in Nurburg about another turbocharged hatchback that might well eat the Civic for lunch...
Renaultsport are no strangers to the 'ring, their Clios and Meganes have fantastic track records over the old 20.8km track for the last decade or so. The RS265 Trophy might not have been the most powerful FWD sportscar, but it was the fastest around a lap. And what if Renaultsport make a stripped out, near-300hp final edition? In the vein of the legendary R26.R? Then, Honda, you have a fight on your hands...
Z06 v TA is the battle of 600hp US coupes
It's the American Derby that will set the yankland forums on fire. For the true "fans", you can't like both Corvettes and Vipers. You can't like both GM and Chrysler. Oh no. It's like the Aussies with Holden and Ford.
You have to pick a side. V10 or V8? This time we're looking at two brands with lots of experience. Both sides of the fight have held the out-right mass-produced fastest car 'ring record at different times, and both have motorsports divisions competing at the highest level.
In the Chevy corner is the new supercharged Z06 Corvette a 625hp+ monster that looks set to terrorise the 'ring if the talented standard car is anything to go by. ()
And in the SRT corner is the Viper TA. TA meaning Time Attack. No confusion there, they built it especially to topple the old Corvette ZR-1 at Laguna Seca. And the logical progression (budgets allowing) will be the Nurburgring.
There has to be a lap time, right?
This was the irrelevant and over-hyped ménage a trois that dominated so many internet headlines last year. And believe me, the chances are it might just do it all again this year. God help us. Why?
Because while Porsche might have claimed first-blood with an awesome sub-seven lap, the reality is that the LaFerrari has tested here several times without any known lap time attempts. It's a massive unanswered question.
After McLaren spent several weeks testing the Harris-approved P1, they left us hanging by attempting to claim the moral high-ground with a loose claim of being faster than the 918, but no actual time or video.
We know what it has to beat...
Or maybe, just maybe, they will forget about Nurburgring lap times and just concentrate on making a car that's both technologically unbeatable and fun to drive. We can but hope...
Discussion
Re the Viper v Vette, not sure why but I think the viper will have it as the car is at a price bracket where they can afford to be more focused and put out a model that is a race car with plates but I could we be wrong.
P1v918vF70 well I suspect at this extream end of the market the skill of a driver might actually have more bearing than the car, if the P1 did 6.37 (made that up) and the 918 6.39 and the La Ferrari 6.38 does that mean any would be faster in my hands than the other and I supect a lot of P1 owners will own the other two anyway.
Clio v Honda v Any other hot hatch, this is the one that interests me as I might be able to buy one which is faster will of course be less relevant when I part with my cash though than which comes with blue tooth and an ipod doc
P1v918vF70 well I suspect at this extream end of the market the skill of a driver might actually have more bearing than the car, if the P1 did 6.37 (made that up) and the 918 6.39 and the La Ferrari 6.38 does that mean any would be faster in my hands than the other and I supect a lot of P1 owners will own the other two anyway.
Clio v Honda v Any other hot hatch, this is the one that interests me as I might be able to buy one which is faster will of course be less relevant when I part with my cash though than which comes with blue tooth and an ipod doc
The 'Ring is proving to be a bit of a poisoned chalice for manufacturers.
On the one hand it's undoubtably a great place to test cars and if you can make a car handle well around there it will handle well on most roads.
The downside is that if you do test there then you are under pressure to release a lap time which has be default become the most important 'Top Trump' statistic for all new performance cars.
On the one hand it's undoubtably a great place to test cars and if you can make a car handle well around there it will handle well on most roads.
The downside is that if you do test there then you are under pressure to release a lap time which has be default become the most important 'Top Trump' statistic for all new performance cars.
Davey S2 said:
The 'Ring is proving to be a bit of a poisoned chalice for manufacturers.
On the one hand it's undoubtably a great place to test cars and if you can make a car handle well around there it will handle well on most roads.
The downside is that if you do test there then you are under pressure to release a lap time which has be default become the most important 'Top Trump' statistic for all new performance cars.
is that to an extent what Mclaren are pusing back with in the 650s a car that is more "fun" not simply faster. From limited experience the ring is fun but way too much for mere mortals like me.On the one hand it's undoubtably a great place to test cars and if you can make a car handle well around there it will handle well on most roads.
The downside is that if you do test there then you are under pressure to release a lap time which has be default become the most important 'Top Trump' statistic for all new performance cars.
An while i love the idea of a stripped out Civic with 2 seats an a cage the fact that Mrs Gecko has a say means aircon, electric parking sensors, stero, blue tooth, boot space, isofix points etc all come before BHP and 0-60
Manufacturer's marketing department:
Lets make a car for the petrol heads and car enthusiasts out there. They're all completely obsessed with the Nurburgring so we must make a car that gets around it as fast as possible. Sod making it actually work on bumpy, rough and inconsistent roads. We'll put a tested at the ring sticker in it somewhere that'll sell it. *mugs, scoff*. Oh hang on a minute Vauxhall did just that.
Lets make a car for the petrol heads and car enthusiasts out there. They're all completely obsessed with the Nurburgring so we must make a car that gets around it as fast as possible. Sod making it actually work on bumpy, rough and inconsistent roads. We'll put a tested at the ring sticker in it somewhere that'll sell it. *mugs, scoff*. Oh hang on a minute Vauxhall did just that.
Ollywood said:
I wonder if top gear will get to drive them all on their track.
The topgear track is a pretty dreadful but It most likely will be the first place true laps times are going to start to be compared.Haven't they already said they have the 918 and P1 lined up for a shoot out later on in the series?
918 P1 F70 comparisons don't really interest me that much. The P1 is an amazing car, they all are in their own right - I feel a little detached from the Ferrari though as there's been so little about it. Maybe it's Ferrari blagging its 'exclusiveness' card again. Who knows/cares.
The Vette/Viper one obviously I have a touch more intrigue for. I always felt the Viper was a much, much more focused core car than the somewhat multifaceted Corvette. But, as a new Corvette owner and having watched the C7 chase down competition with an oddly alien sense of pride, I'm starting to hope for the Z06 in that duel.
The Vette/Viper one obviously I have a touch more intrigue for. I always felt the Viper was a much, much more focused core car than the somewhat multifaceted Corvette. But, as a new Corvette owner and having watched the C7 chase down competition with an oddly alien sense of pride, I'm starting to hope for the Z06 in that duel.
I wonder when a manufacturer will decide the marketing benefit of a good 'Ring time doesn't justify the cost?
It'll happen. 10 years ago NO-ONE bothered about such things...
It's totally irrelevant in the real world (worse than the much derided 0-60 time!) - It's one track, on one day, with no controls applied. Different drivers, different tyres, track temperature, etc, etc, etc.
I've no idea what any car I've ever owned (or any I'm ever likely to own) will do the 'Ring in, and I don't care.
If engineers find developing a car at the track useful to provide me with a better car, I'm all for it, but 'chasing a time' is utterly worthless to anyone except the Marketing teams.
M
It'll happen. 10 years ago NO-ONE bothered about such things...
It's totally irrelevant in the real world (worse than the much derided 0-60 time!) - It's one track, on one day, with no controls applied. Different drivers, different tyres, track temperature, etc, etc, etc.
I've no idea what any car I've ever owned (or any I'm ever likely to own) will do the 'Ring in, and I don't care.
If engineers find developing a car at the track useful to provide me with a better car, I'm all for it, but 'chasing a time' is utterly worthless to anyone except the Marketing teams.
M
I tend to disagree, is there not a passion in the companies that build these cars? From R&D to the build and prep. People are involved at every stage and people are competative. So what is wrong with having the passion to deliver a car with a quick time and then sharing it with the public? They could do a quick time around spa but it doesn't get the same publicity. They choose the Ring to do it because this is where they are able to prove to the masses that their effort and work is the cream of the crop.
The fact that it can be used as marketing tool is no bad thing IMO.
The fact that it can be used as marketing tool is no bad thing IMO.
vz-r_dave said:
I tend to disagree, is there not a passion in the companies that build these cars? From R&D to the build and prep. People are involved at every stage and people are competative. So what is wrong with having the passion to deliver a car with a quick time and then sharing it with the public? They could do a quick time around spa but it doesn't get the same publicity. They choose the Ring to do it because this is where they are able to prove to the masses that their effort and work is the cream of the crop.
The fact that it can be used as marketing tool is no bad thing IMO.
There is a relevance in that the ring is open to the public but I think its pure marketing what we want is a fast car that does not kill us or is impossible to drive to Asda (I doubt owners of a P1 go to Asda). I would assume Williams could set up there car to smash the ring record but so what if your average Joe can't buy the car and also making something that is not a track day toy (Will a P1 be seen at the ring or Kings Road and LA, Dubai etc) go really fast on a track might actually dial out the fun. Again my fave car of all time is the R35 GTR (in terms of cars I have driven) its fast but safe and thuis fun but perhaps not the best ring weapon but who cares when it puts a smile on my face The fact that it can be used as marketing tool is no bad thing IMO.
I think that a lot of people are missing why manufacturers do their own times. If they don't, then eventually Sport-Auto or someone else will borrow a car, set a time and it will in all likelihood be slower than it potentially could be. That would result in an objective independent source stating that a rival has pub bragging rights. And even hyper-car buyers care about those (regardless of how absurd that is). They just brag in more exclusive drinking establishments.
Equally - the children of today are the customers of tomorrow. And to children : Top Trumps matter...
Just because 'ring times are a ridiculous sideshow to the motor industry doesn't actually mean that they are as irrelevant as they should be.
Equally - the children of today are the customers of tomorrow. And to children : Top Trumps matter...
Just because 'ring times are a ridiculous sideshow to the motor industry doesn't actually mean that they are as irrelevant as they should be.
per previous commenters, while the 'ring time is all well and good, it is modern manufacturer willy-waggling, and a huge irrelevance to those of us expected to stump up dosh to buy the cars.
to illustrate: my daily PH email today contained a PH Hero piece on the MX5 - a car that is nearly universally loved as a great example of how you build a car that is fun to drive. and yet it never went to the 'ring and posted a time. i know "ringing" wasn't done in 1989, but i doubt that when the Mk 4 is revealed, that Mazda will spend any time boasting about it's time to circulate the Nurburgring. and yet enthusiasts will go out and buy it.
to illustrate: my daily PH email today contained a PH Hero piece on the MX5 - a car that is nearly universally loved as a great example of how you build a car that is fun to drive. and yet it never went to the 'ring and posted a time. i know "ringing" wasn't done in 1989, but i doubt that when the Mk 4 is revealed, that Mazda will spend any time boasting about it's time to circulate the Nurburgring. and yet enthusiasts will go out and buy it.
marcosgt said:
I wonder when a manufacturer will decide the marketing benefit of a good 'Ring time doesn't justify the cost?
Ferrari already did. They sold out their cars, and didn't bother to really put in a attacking lap. All that bogus about Mclaren hiding their time so that they wouldn't be beaten by Ferrari is stupid. Ferrari is not going to risk getting a slower time, risk breaking a car (imagine headlines, Ferrari crashed attempting to beat Porsche and Mclaren). The car is sold out, they can't make more money by spending all that money to make a pointless lap.Madkat said:
Manufacturer's marketing department:
Lets make a car for the petrol heads and car enthusiasts out there. They're all completely obsessed with the Nurburgring so we must make a car that gets around it as fast as possible. Sod making it actually work on bumpy, rough and inconsistent roads. We'll put a tested at the ring sticker in it somewhere that'll sell it. *mugs, scoff*. Oh hang on a minute Vauxhall did just that.
Except the Nurburgring is bumpy, rough and inconsistent.Lets make a car for the petrol heads and car enthusiasts out there. They're all completely obsessed with the Nurburgring so we must make a car that gets around it as fast as possible. Sod making it actually work on bumpy, rough and inconsistent roads. We'll put a tested at the ring sticker in it somewhere that'll sell it. *mugs, scoff*. Oh hang on a minute Vauxhall did just that.
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