Discussion
A part of my 350 restoration, i've gone the carb route and ditched the efi system in favour of an edelbrock 600 and performer manifold. I'm not sure on how to alter the electrical wiring to suit. I know a couple of people on here have done this conversion. Can anyone advise me / talk me through this please, thanks. Andy
The EFI was a tacked-on addition to the carbed V8 so it's a simple matter to remove it or just disconnect and tape it up of you don't mind the mess.
All a carbed car will need is an ignition-switched feed to the coil and probably electronic ignition unit, trigger from the distributor to the coil/ignition unit and the fuel pump changing for a lower-pressure variant (carbs need about 4psi, not 40psi like the injection).
All a carbed car will need is an ignition-switched feed to the coil and probably electronic ignition unit, trigger from the distributor to the coil/ignition unit and the fuel pump changing for a lower-pressure variant (carbs need about 4psi, not 40psi like the injection).
Dogmanandy said:
A part of my 350 restoration, i've gone the carb route and ditched the efi system in favour of an edelbrock 600 and performer manifold. I'm not sure on how to alter the electrical wiring to suit. I know a couple of people on here have done this conversion. Can anyone advise me / talk me through this please, thanks. Andy
Drop me a line. Did you not get my last email Andy?Probably needs something that says "The engine is not running, the starter is not engaged, the ignition is on but we really shouldn't run the electric fuel pump". Also something that says "The engine is not running, the starter is engaged, the ignition is on and we really need to run the the electric fuel pump".
Or "we've had a crash, best disconnect the electric fuel pump".
Or "we've had a crash, best disconnect the electric fuel pump".
Dogmanandy said:
I'm actually after some genuine help - some right comedians on here, but there you go !
Thanks GV did get your email, just a bit lost with the electrical side, everything else was very helpful, will pm you.
Thanks GV did get your email, just a bit lost with the electrical side, everything else was very helpful, will pm you.
I don't know about the rest of them but I can't see anything funny. Fettler's description might be a bit off the wall but what he says is essentially true.OK - try this instead.....Intended to be serious
I have taken apart quite a few cars, and built a few kitcars, and done restorations, engine swops etc. but generally on older vehicles (like over 20) and not for quite a while.
Generally, on older cars the Injection setup is separate from ignition, and often a separate subloom, so it's easy to find and remove. (because they had Carb and Injection options)
On later ones, wiring is all integrated, so probably the easiest thing to do is find which fuse powers the engine management/fuel computer, and remove it. Then disconnect all the obvious engine fuel bits.
Then you may need a new ignition control system, if it was powered by the same computer as the fuel (like for example all Fords after about 1985 had an EEC-IV which did both fuel and ignition). I think for the Rover though it had separate ignition and fuel, so it should be a bit easier to sort out.
Sometimes the only way to be sure is to trace the wires by their colour code, with a workshop manual in one hand and a torch in the other.....which can be slow and frustrating, but it's the only way. I have stripped a loom back to the separate wires a couple of times to get the computer wiring out from the rest of the loom, for an engine swop, which isn't technically hard, again it's just slow and takes detailed and careful work with a Stanley knife..
You can connect a low pressure electric pump straight to ignition live, so that it's pumping whenever ignition is on, but it really is a good idea to have an inertia switch in case of an accident. You don't want fuel pumping out after a smash....
I have taken apart quite a few cars, and built a few kitcars, and done restorations, engine swops etc. but generally on older vehicles (like over 20) and not for quite a while.
Generally, on older cars the Injection setup is separate from ignition, and often a separate subloom, so it's easy to find and remove. (because they had Carb and Injection options)
On later ones, wiring is all integrated, so probably the easiest thing to do is find which fuse powers the engine management/fuel computer, and remove it. Then disconnect all the obvious engine fuel bits.
Then you may need a new ignition control system, if it was powered by the same computer as the fuel (like for example all Fords after about 1985 had an EEC-IV which did both fuel and ignition). I think for the Rover though it had separate ignition and fuel, so it should be a bit easier to sort out.
Sometimes the only way to be sure is to trace the wires by their colour code, with a workshop manual in one hand and a torch in the other.....which can be slow and frustrating, but it's the only way. I have stripped a loom back to the separate wires a couple of times to get the computer wiring out from the rest of the loom, for an engine swop, which isn't technically hard, again it's just slow and takes detailed and careful work with a Stanley knife..
You can connect a low pressure electric pump straight to ignition live, so that it's pumping whenever ignition is on, but it really is a good idea to have an inertia switch in case of an accident. You don't want fuel pumping out after a smash....
Edited by RCK974X on Monday 24th February 04:36
Edited by RCK974X on Monday 24th February 04:37
My understanding is that flapper ignition system should still work with all fuel injection equipment removed.
For "engine has stopped, switch off electric fuel pump", it's possible to monitor oil pressure (engine stopped = no oil pressure = disconnect electric fuel pump), needs a bypass circuit for starting.
For "engine has stopped, switch off electric fuel pump", it's possible to monitor oil pressure (engine stopped = no oil pressure = disconnect electric fuel pump), needs a bypass circuit for starting.
Correct - the lucas EFi system just connects to the coil -ve to give the ECU a trigger signal, this is a Black wire with white trace (on my car anyway) disappearing into the injection loom,the hotwire cars I believe had a resistor in series but the flapper's have a direct connection from the coil -ve to the ECU. Once this is disconnected the ignition system is basically standalone.
For the fuel pump control you could use an inertia switch from a eurobox, a MK2 Mondeo is a good source as they are usually located in the passenger footwell and are easy to remove, it's just a black box with a red plunger. If you want the pump running only when the engine is running I think the 6 pot rover SD1 (possibly 8 pot + carb ?) had their electric fuel pump controlled by the oil pressure, I seem to recall they had an extra set of contacts in the oil pressure switch that was used to keep the fuel pump on when oil pressure was available, this was then bypassed when cranking so you could can start the engine and generate some oil pressure !
For the fuel pump control you could use an inertia switch from a eurobox, a MK2 Mondeo is a good source as they are usually located in the passenger footwell and are easy to remove, it's just a black box with a red plunger. If you want the pump running only when the engine is running I think the 6 pot rover SD1 (possibly 8 pot + carb ?) had their electric fuel pump controlled by the oil pressure, I seem to recall they had an extra set of contacts in the oil pressure switch that was used to keep the fuel pump on when oil pressure was available, this was then bypassed when cranking so you could can start the engine and generate some oil pressure !
Instead of oil pressure, there are also some setups which use the ignition (spark) to keep them alive. Unit looks like a 'tall relay' - like indicator or wash/wipe relay units.
Fords used this method for a while - when ignition switched on, they power the pump for 2 secs (ish) and will then turn off unless they see a coil 'trigger'. Used on mechanical injection systems too (e.g Capri 2.8, Escort XR3, and probably later Wedge 280 ?).
So there are several ways to go, but should have some kind of safety cutoff, just in case.
Fords used this method for a while - when ignition switched on, they power the pump for 2 secs (ish) and will then turn off unless they see a coil 'trigger'. Used on mechanical injection systems too (e.g Capri 2.8, Escort XR3, and probably later Wedge 280 ?).
So there are several ways to go, but should have some kind of safety cutoff, just in case.
Thanks guys, really helpful info and much appreciated. New territory for me but ive come this far and determined to try and sort the resto on my own as far as I can, only using specialists when necessary. Got my radiator back from being totally refurbished today, excellent craftsman in Higham in Kent and reasonably priced.
Good Luck !!
It's easy for me to say, with a background in electronics and IT, but the wiring isn't really all that scary,honest, just that there's simply a LOT of it, because there's a lot of stuff to power/control.
Luckily most looms have unique wiring colours, so it's mainly a bit of detective work to find out what does what.
(I have an early 2.8 wedge, and it's all wired in BLACK ! It's a bugger to sort out faults in an all black loom !!)
It's easy for me to say, with a background in electronics and IT, but the wiring isn't really all that scary,honest, just that there's simply a LOT of it, because there's a lot of stuff to power/control.
Luckily most looms have unique wiring colours, so it's mainly a bit of detective work to find out what does what.
(I have an early 2.8 wedge, and it's all wired in BLACK ! It's a bugger to sort out faults in an all black loom !!)
RCK974X said:
Fords used this method for a while - when ignition switched on, they power the pump for 2 secs (ish) and will then turn off unless they see a coil 'trigger'. Used on mechanical injection systems too (e.g Capri 2.8, Escort XR3, and probably later Wedge 280 ?).
I was going to post the same solution; the later 280s did indeed use the Ford ignition pulse-sampling module.I might have a fuel cut out relay and some loom knocking about.
Can anyone, RCK or Ian, knock up a quick wiring diagram of what is needed, including fuel pump and ignition/spark pick points? perhaps something can be tapped onto the original fuel pump relay circuit (if you have on Andy)
I was thinking like this?
Stu
On the flip side, how many times have you smashed youre car to pieces?
My own personal opinion, albeit incorrect, is, why not have it off a relay switched by the ignition switch?
Yes yes, I know, Im a bad boy!
Stu
Can anyone, RCK or Ian, knock up a quick wiring diagram of what is needed, including fuel pump and ignition/spark pick points? perhaps something can be tapped onto the original fuel pump relay circuit (if you have on Andy)
I was thinking like this?
Stu
On the flip side, how many times have you smashed youre car to pieces?
My own personal opinion, albeit incorrect, is, why not have it off a relay switched by the ignition switch?
Yes yes, I know, Im a bad boy!
Stu
SD1s have a standard to cut power to the fuel pump. They all have electric pumps. Could be that in the vitesse loom this is already there. It probably needs the oil pressure switch as mentined before if to run on carbs. Some wedges have an impact fuel cut-off, my standard 350i `86 built hasn`t, perhaps yours has and would take care of one situation.
Rob
Rob
"On the flip side, how many times have you smashed youre car to pieces?"
OK, why do you buy insurance ? Because it's compulsory ?
Are you going to smash your car to pieces ? No of course not. But it might be some other idiot...
THINK....
Your wedge is mostly Fibreglass, which will happily burn, leaving you with a bare and black chassis and a few lumps smouldering of black stuff. If you are involved in a nasty crash, you might bump your head and be away with the fairies, (or worse, awake but stuck, unable to reach the switch) car maybe at odd angle or upside down,the LAST thing you need is the ignition still on, engine stalled and fuel rushing out of a ruptured pipe....
Is this scenario likely ? No, not even remotely, but you can never say it's impossible.
So isn't it worth that extra bit of safety ??
Sorry if you think that's over the top, but that's my honest opinion.
That diagram looks OK in principle, but alternators are not wired exactly that way. Main alternator terminal is connected DIRECTLY to the battery, and the small wire goes to the warning light, then to the ignition switch (as far as I know anyway). Actually looking at you diagram, it just needs an extra wire/line drawn for this...
Your starter motor bit looks correct.
Also on the way you've drawn the pump relay, you need fuel pressure as engine cranks, which won't be charging yet, so I don't think that will work quite right.....
OK, why do you buy insurance ? Because it's compulsory ?
Are you going to smash your car to pieces ? No of course not. But it might be some other idiot...
THINK....
Your wedge is mostly Fibreglass, which will happily burn, leaving you with a bare and black chassis and a few lumps smouldering of black stuff. If you are involved in a nasty crash, you might bump your head and be away with the fairies, (or worse, awake but stuck, unable to reach the switch) car maybe at odd angle or upside down,the LAST thing you need is the ignition still on, engine stalled and fuel rushing out of a ruptured pipe....
Is this scenario likely ? No, not even remotely, but you can never say it's impossible.
So isn't it worth that extra bit of safety ??
Sorry if you think that's over the top, but that's my honest opinion.
That diagram looks OK in principle, but alternators are not wired exactly that way. Main alternator terminal is connected DIRECTLY to the battery, and the small wire goes to the warning light, then to the ignition switch (as far as I know anyway). Actually looking at you diagram, it just needs an extra wire/line drawn for this...
Your starter motor bit looks correct.
Also on the way you've drawn the pump relay, you need fuel pressure as engine cranks, which won't be charging yet, so I don't think that will work quite right.....
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