Are drivers aids ruining cars?
Discussion
I've got into a bit of a debate (argument) with a well known motoring journalist and would like to gauge opinion here to see if anyone shares my feeling about the topic of...
Drivers Aids
...and how modern cars have been ruined by them.
I suggested they need an "off" setting and was called a neanderthal.
Fair enough I'm a bit of technophobe, control freak and prefer to be in control of a vehicle instead of a computer.
I like a good "Driver vs Drivers aids" debate?
To enhance the ability of a regular road user they have their place. To accurately access the chassis dynamic and capability of the actual platform itself or to be able to accurately compare the difference the aids make in relation to the mechanical limit of the platform compared to the electronic limit an "off" setting is advantageous.
To each their own. There are valid arguments that drivers aids are there to help drivers (it's not just a clever name) but you could also suggest drivers aids help create bad drivers.
Personally I find it frustrating when the electronic limit is nowhere near the mechanical limit of the vehicle.
The Nissan GTR is a prime example of this. Most think it's the best thing ever to burn refined fossil fuel but I found it to be one of the most annoying cars I have ever driven. What were Nissan thinking? "Here's the best car we've ever built, best engine, most advanced drive train, most balanced chassis, but we'll fit a computer so even the best drivers in the world will only ever see 90-95% of what it can do at the lowest setting".
Technology for the betterment of the driving experience or technology for technology sake? Starbucking the whole industry because manufacturers want to keep up with one another instead of stepping back and asking themselves "Does this car actually need fourteen different traction control settings?"
Drivers aids started out with the best of intentions. Manufacturers realised vehicles they were making weighed a couple of tons, suspension technology wasn't advanced enough at the time so to make these cars stay on the roads they had to use wide tyres. These tyres meant customers were getting repetitive strain injuries so they fitted a small pneumatic pump to the engine to reduce the amount pressure on the steering rack and Power Steering was born. A similar story for ABS; cars stop quicker at slow speeds if the brakes don't lock the wheels and countless lives have been saved by the concept. Traction control; due to the weight of vehicles they needed more and more power to make them go as fast as customers wanted so traction control was introduced to help people stay on the roads and not spin off backwards in a ball of flames. All good ideas, all benefit the driver and make the world a safer place.
Then things got silly. Companies started looking at each other and adding drivers aids because their competition hadn't. Traction control that wasn't on or off but had settings for snow, ice, rain, dry, sport mode and track. So another company had to have snow, ice, cold dry, warm dry, hot dry, sport and track. Rain sensitive windscreen wipers. Rain sensitive windscreen wipers that told the traction control it was wet (not a lot of good if there's standing water or you've just been through a car wash). Automatic headlights (Mercedes) and now there are headlights that adjust automatically depending on weather the car senses another vehicle on the road or not (BMW).
Each year more drivers aids were added because other manufacturers had them and the idea of drivers aids became like Christmas lights on a housing estate and escalated from "Lets celibate Jesus's birthday" to a whole street of Clark Griswald's with so many lights in their yards air traffic needs to be diverted every year.
Drivers aids are no longer about helping drivers and making the roads safer they are category in a game of automotive top trumps where the more drivers aids the better. Shame it has ruined cars for those of us who used to enjoy them.
What do you guys think?
Drivers Aids
...and how modern cars have been ruined by them.
I suggested they need an "off" setting and was called a neanderthal.
Fair enough I'm a bit of technophobe, control freak and prefer to be in control of a vehicle instead of a computer.
I like a good "Driver vs Drivers aids" debate?
To enhance the ability of a regular road user they have their place. To accurately access the chassis dynamic and capability of the actual platform itself or to be able to accurately compare the difference the aids make in relation to the mechanical limit of the platform compared to the electronic limit an "off" setting is advantageous.
To each their own. There are valid arguments that drivers aids are there to help drivers (it's not just a clever name) but you could also suggest drivers aids help create bad drivers.
Personally I find it frustrating when the electronic limit is nowhere near the mechanical limit of the vehicle.
The Nissan GTR is a prime example of this. Most think it's the best thing ever to burn refined fossil fuel but I found it to be one of the most annoying cars I have ever driven. What were Nissan thinking? "Here's the best car we've ever built, best engine, most advanced drive train, most balanced chassis, but we'll fit a computer so even the best drivers in the world will only ever see 90-95% of what it can do at the lowest setting".
Technology for the betterment of the driving experience or technology for technology sake? Starbucking the whole industry because manufacturers want to keep up with one another instead of stepping back and asking themselves "Does this car actually need fourteen different traction control settings?"
Drivers aids started out with the best of intentions. Manufacturers realised vehicles they were making weighed a couple of tons, suspension technology wasn't advanced enough at the time so to make these cars stay on the roads they had to use wide tyres. These tyres meant customers were getting repetitive strain injuries so they fitted a small pneumatic pump to the engine to reduce the amount pressure on the steering rack and Power Steering was born. A similar story for ABS; cars stop quicker at slow speeds if the brakes don't lock the wheels and countless lives have been saved by the concept. Traction control; due to the weight of vehicles they needed more and more power to make them go as fast as customers wanted so traction control was introduced to help people stay on the roads and not spin off backwards in a ball of flames. All good ideas, all benefit the driver and make the world a safer place.
Then things got silly. Companies started looking at each other and adding drivers aids because their competition hadn't. Traction control that wasn't on or off but had settings for snow, ice, rain, dry, sport mode and track. So another company had to have snow, ice, cold dry, warm dry, hot dry, sport and track. Rain sensitive windscreen wipers. Rain sensitive windscreen wipers that told the traction control it was wet (not a lot of good if there's standing water or you've just been through a car wash). Automatic headlights (Mercedes) and now there are headlights that adjust automatically depending on weather the car senses another vehicle on the road or not (BMW).
Each year more drivers aids were added because other manufacturers had them and the idea of drivers aids became like Christmas lights on a housing estate and escalated from "Lets celibate Jesus's birthday" to a whole street of Clark Griswald's with so many lights in their yards air traffic needs to be diverted every year.
Drivers aids are no longer about helping drivers and making the roads safer they are category in a game of automotive top trumps where the more drivers aids the better. Shame it has ruined cars for those of us who used to enjoy them.
What do you guys think?
Sensibleboy said:
No. because 99% of people will never use things such as ESP and ABS so they won't experience them.
Drivers aids such as auto lights, DRLs etc are making drivers worse because they can more things without any thought at all.
Sorry automatic lights are making drivers worse ?! Turning lights on and off doesn't really effect people's driving.Drivers aids such as auto lights, DRLs etc are making drivers worse because they can more things without any thought at all.
Driving aids aren't ruining cars.
jimbop1 said:
Sorry automatic lights are making drivers worse ?! Turning lights on and off doesn't really effect people's driving.
Driving aids aren't ruining cars.
Automatic lights, rain-sensing wipers and the ilk all contribute to decreasing the driver's need to be sensitive to the conditions - which is the foundation of good driving.Driving aids aren't ruining cars.
That's not to say that those who use driver aids are bad drivers, but OP certainly has a point...as cars increasingly require less and less mental attention to operate, it is a natural consequence that some drivers pay less and less attention when driving.
Good topic, OP
Late last year, I was in the position to buy another sports car, saved up around £20k. I ended up getting another TVR, as many other alternatives seemed to be packed to the gills with electronic aids. I just want a set of Nitrons, set up correctly, beefy brakes and a Quaife LSD, with very good sticky tyres keeping the car on the road. Any other aid is superfluous.
But that's a sports car, I guess for 'normal' cars, there's more of a case for the electronic aids...
Late last year, I was in the position to buy another sports car, saved up around £20k. I ended up getting another TVR, as many other alternatives seemed to be packed to the gills with electronic aids. I just want a set of Nitrons, set up correctly, beefy brakes and a Quaife LSD, with very good sticky tyres keeping the car on the road. Any other aid is superfluous.
But that's a sports car, I guess for 'normal' cars, there's more of a case for the electronic aids...
zeduffman said:
Pain in the arse when they can't use their brain and the auto lights don't switch on in foggy conditions.
But those people probably wouldn't have turned their lights on in the fog anyway. No one has automatic fog lights and yet people still forget to turn them on when required.Yes I totally agree. Most people aren't really drivers though-the car is like their computer; there to do a job and the fancier and newer, the better. It is something to show off to their mates and manufacturers know this.
There is such a small market for stripped out cars than most manufacturers don't bother. However IMO a light (Max 1200KG) estate car with proper seats, non assisted steering, skinny tyres, rear drive and a LSD would make a cracking family car. Oh yes and absolutely no toys inside save for a radio.
I really hate stuff like the new M5 for instance. Too technical, too heavy and there to pander to the person who likes something fast above all else.
There is such a small market for stripped out cars than most manufacturers don't bother. However IMO a light (Max 1200KG) estate car with proper seats, non assisted steering, skinny tyres, rear drive and a LSD would make a cracking family car. Oh yes and absolutely no toys inside save for a radio.
I really hate stuff like the new M5 for instance. Too technical, too heavy and there to pander to the person who likes something fast above all else.
I have to agree, from a enthusiasts point of view anyway.
I'm a big fan of mechanical innovations, lighter materials, suspension, geometry and chassis design.
Not such a fan of electronic aids at all, but I can see why the majority of car buyers want/like or are told they need them from clever marketing.
I wouldn't say that driver aids are ruining cars for the masses but I would go as far to say they are ruining cars for many enthusiast, mainly because there is no option not to have them.
I'm a big fan of mechanical innovations, lighter materials, suspension, geometry and chassis design.
Not such a fan of electronic aids at all, but I can see why the majority of car buyers want/like or are told they need them from clever marketing.
I wouldn't say that driver aids are ruining cars for the masses but I would go as far to say they are ruining cars for many enthusiast, mainly because there is no option not to have them.
I am firmly of the opinion that all these aids are put there just because they can. OK, turning the lights on isn't a big thing, but when on a bright summer's day I start the car in the garage the lights come on and don't turn off for several miles. The automatic wipers drive me crazy, working to a mind-set all of their own. "Hmm, several drops on sensor so full speed please"
ABS is fine, but this taking over emergency braking if you press the pedal harder than you meant is another too. Takes nose out of imaginary airbag. Why cannot I, with a DPF to support, not just set the 'box in sport mode, turn off the autostop engine system and leave it like that? Morning routine is enter car, start engine, turn off ECO mode, press 'box switch even before I think of putting the damned thing in gear. And don't get me started on the moneymaking trick of days until the next tear-jerking service, not mileage. i'll get my computer reset and go on until I think it needs a service.
ABS is fine, but this taking over emergency braking if you press the pedal harder than you meant is another too. Takes nose out of imaginary airbag. Why cannot I, with a DPF to support, not just set the 'box in sport mode, turn off the autostop engine system and leave it like that? Morning routine is enter car, start engine, turn off ECO mode, press 'box switch even before I think of putting the damned thing in gear. And don't get me started on the moneymaking trick of days until the next tear-jerking service, not mileage. i'll get my computer reset and go on until I think it needs a service.
Drivers aids aren't ruining cars at all. Most see a car as a means to get from A to B. Mix in elements of safety, comfort and price and brand preference and the rest is just a box on wheels.
Most of it's useful.
ABS/ DSC / emergency full breaking. From what i've read they do a better job for the majority of the time than joe bloggs and his jerky foot cadence rubbish.
Electric handbrakes: bloody brilliant in my barge. Either Lexus do it differently to everyone else, but it's never failed to do exactly what it was designed to do
Rear parking sensors/camera: useful, especially in a people carrier type thing when who knows if some escaping rugrat is just about to be disemboweled on the driveway
Multizone A/C or AC come to that. Women run cold, we know that, they hate the cold and they sure as hell know how to vocalise the fact they are [i]freezing[-i] even when it's 30 outside - we did ourselves a bloody great favour there!
rain sensitive wipers - great idea. What's the problem. Same with auto lights in being one less crappy thing to think about.
Same with electric heated/cooled/massage chairs. They are useful and make a commute less stressful. My old cars had none of this stuff and it really did make it harder work.
Variable suspension. Bloody brilliant even in a 2ton Japanese barge it makes parts of the journey more stable - especially on the windy days of late than the journey would otherwise be. Same with the sport button. Leave it in normal and it torque drags it up a hill. Shift it to sport and surprise surprise, it makes it more 'fun' (same caveat about being a 2ton plus barge still apply).
LKA and active cruise. Fecking brilliant bits of kit that made a long commute easier. They just work. Pick a lane, set a speed, job done. And before anyone says 'yeah but you're not concentrating then are you'. Actually you do in a different kind of way. In fact the LKA's ability to hold and steer makes a significant difference.
I do get the point that people want to switch certain things off. But I guess other than ABS/DSC/handbrakes I would have thought most things are (stands to be corrected ...)
Most of it's useful.
ABS/ DSC / emergency full breaking. From what i've read they do a better job for the majority of the time than joe bloggs and his jerky foot cadence rubbish.
Electric handbrakes: bloody brilliant in my barge. Either Lexus do it differently to everyone else, but it's never failed to do exactly what it was designed to do
Rear parking sensors/camera: useful, especially in a people carrier type thing when who knows if some escaping rugrat is just about to be disemboweled on the driveway
Multizone A/C or AC come to that. Women run cold, we know that, they hate the cold and they sure as hell know how to vocalise the fact they are [i]freezing[-i] even when it's 30 outside - we did ourselves a bloody great favour there!
rain sensitive wipers - great idea. What's the problem. Same with auto lights in being one less crappy thing to think about.
Same with electric heated/cooled/massage chairs. They are useful and make a commute less stressful. My old cars had none of this stuff and it really did make it harder work.
Variable suspension. Bloody brilliant even in a 2ton Japanese barge it makes parts of the journey more stable - especially on the windy days of late than the journey would otherwise be. Same with the sport button. Leave it in normal and it torque drags it up a hill. Shift it to sport and surprise surprise, it makes it more 'fun' (same caveat about being a 2ton plus barge still apply).
LKA and active cruise. Fecking brilliant bits of kit that made a long commute easier. They just work. Pick a lane, set a speed, job done. And before anyone says 'yeah but you're not concentrating then are you'. Actually you do in a different kind of way. In fact the LKA's ability to hold and steer makes a significant difference.
I do get the point that people want to switch certain things off. But I guess other than ABS/DSC/handbrakes I would have thought most things are (stands to be corrected ...)
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