V12VS compared with V12V, and specs
Discussion
They are both great cars. Objectively, the S has obviously moved the game on, but I would be interested in other specific thoughts.
As I just posted on the Clunk thread:
"I had a brief go in a V12VS yesterday with its newer SportShift (compared with an older V8 Roadster), and was surprised when it didn't move off when I released the footbrake. It did not start to creep until I applied the accelerator. I thought this seemed a much better system for manoeuvering (and waiting at lights you could apply the handbrake and release the footbrake in order to avoid dazzling the guy behind, if you bother about that).
To be provocative - but we all know this is 100% subjective - I thought not having a clutch pedal and lever vastly changed the driving experience from my V12V, and not for the more satisfying!"
So, I found the new SS vastly better than an older SS, but personally still preferred the manual which was a major reason for choosing the V12V.
I liked the more compliant suspension of the S versus my car. To be honest, I could not say that I noticed the extra performance. I have not yet become blase about the performance of the V12V.
I was surprised that it sounded a bit different. Is the exhaust valve opening regime different? In my car, even not in Sport, the exhaust valve is open below 2,000 rpm. In the new car, it seemed much quieter at low revs. But in my car, the when not in Sport, the valve does not open till about 3,800 rpm, and in the new car it seemed to open at about 3,400 rpm. I know I know, you will ask why you would ever want to drive the car not in Sport, but actually I quite like trying to drive swiftly without the exhaust valve opening.
My car has sports seats (was a must for me), and the car I drove had lightweight seats. I found the lightweight seats really quite uncomfortable - again, just shows how personal these things are - and I was not keen on the Alcantara wheel either. This was partly down to the feel, I found it more slippery, and partly to the image - I think the high quality leather of mine goes with the luxurious feeling of the interior.
The radio of the new car was vastly better! Minor but important. And I would like the reduced consumption - officially now 19 vs 14 for my car?
But overall I was happy that a brief drive in the new car did not leave me working out how to stretch myself to it! Even though it is quite good value by comparison with Ferrari, McLaren etc.
Incidentally, I was at Grange Welwyn Aston/Jaguar (having my Jag 'downloaded'). I was surprised to see that the XKR has had its price reduced by about £15k - an XK Dynamic, a top spec R Portfolio by any other name, is now listed at £70k. The V12VS may be good value against a Ferrari or McLaren, but what stunning value is that? And it even looked great, in white with skirts etc as part of the new spec.
As I just posted on the Clunk thread:
"I had a brief go in a V12VS yesterday with its newer SportShift (compared with an older V8 Roadster), and was surprised when it didn't move off when I released the footbrake. It did not start to creep until I applied the accelerator. I thought this seemed a much better system for manoeuvering (and waiting at lights you could apply the handbrake and release the footbrake in order to avoid dazzling the guy behind, if you bother about that).
To be provocative - but we all know this is 100% subjective - I thought not having a clutch pedal and lever vastly changed the driving experience from my V12V, and not for the more satisfying!"
So, I found the new SS vastly better than an older SS, but personally still preferred the manual which was a major reason for choosing the V12V.
I liked the more compliant suspension of the S versus my car. To be honest, I could not say that I noticed the extra performance. I have not yet become blase about the performance of the V12V.
I was surprised that it sounded a bit different. Is the exhaust valve opening regime different? In my car, even not in Sport, the exhaust valve is open below 2,000 rpm. In the new car, it seemed much quieter at low revs. But in my car, the when not in Sport, the valve does not open till about 3,800 rpm, and in the new car it seemed to open at about 3,400 rpm. I know I know, you will ask why you would ever want to drive the car not in Sport, but actually I quite like trying to drive swiftly without the exhaust valve opening.
My car has sports seats (was a must for me), and the car I drove had lightweight seats. I found the lightweight seats really quite uncomfortable - again, just shows how personal these things are - and I was not keen on the Alcantara wheel either. This was partly down to the feel, I found it more slippery, and partly to the image - I think the high quality leather of mine goes with the luxurious feeling of the interior.
The radio of the new car was vastly better! Minor but important. And I would like the reduced consumption - officially now 19 vs 14 for my car?
But overall I was happy that a brief drive in the new car did not leave me working out how to stretch myself to it! Even though it is quite good value by comparison with Ferrari, McLaren etc.
Incidentally, I was at Grange Welwyn Aston/Jaguar (having my Jag 'downloaded'). I was surprised to see that the XKR has had its price reduced by about £15k - an XK Dynamic, a top spec R Portfolio by any other name, is now listed at £70k. The V12VS may be good value against a Ferrari or McLaren, but what stunning value is that? And it even looked great, in white with skirts etc as part of the new spec.
[quote=waremark]They are both great cars. Objectively, the S has obviously moved the game on, but I would be interested in other specific thoughts.
To be provocative - but we all know this is 100% subjective - I thought not having a clutch pedal and lever vastly changed the driving experience from my V12V, and not for the more satisfying!"
So, I found the new SS vastly better than an older SS, but personally still preferred the manual which was a major reason for choosing the V12V.
I was surprised to see that the XKR has had its price reduced by about £15k - an XK Dynamic, a top spec R Portfolio by any other name, is now listed at £70k. ]
+1
The Manual V12 is indeed much more involving, for me reason not to even consider a Vanquish II (which TT3 box is even less involving then the SS3) over my current DBS.
To be provocative - but we all know this is 100% subjective - I thought not having a clutch pedal and lever vastly changed the driving experience from my V12V, and not for the more satisfying!"
So, I found the new SS vastly better than an older SS, but personally still preferred the manual which was a major reason for choosing the V12V.
I was surprised to see that the XKR has had its price reduced by about £15k - an XK Dynamic, a top spec R Portfolio by any other name, is now listed at £70k. ]
+1
The Manual V12 is indeed much more involving, for me reason not to even consider a Vanquish II (which TT3 box is even less involving then the SS3) over my current DBS.
AWV12 said:
waremark said:
They are both great cars. Objectively, the S has obviously moved the game on, but I would be interested in other specific thoughts.
To be provocative - but we all know this is 100% subjective - I thought not having a clutch pedal and lever vastly changed the driving experience from my V12V, and not for the more satisfying!"
So, I found the new SS vastly better than an older SS, but personally still preferred the manual which was a major reason for choosing the V12V.
I was surprised to see that the XKR has had its price reduced by about £15k - an XK Dynamic, a top spec R Portfolio by any other name, is now listed at £70k. ]
+1
The Manual V12 is indeed much more involving, for me reason not to even consider a Vanquish II (which TT3 box is even less involving then the SS3) over my current DBS.
Similar feelings for me when I took out the V12VS to compare against my V12VTo be provocative - but we all know this is 100% subjective - I thought not having a clutch pedal and lever vastly changed the driving experience from my V12V, and not for the more satisfying!"
So, I found the new SS vastly better than an older SS, but personally still preferred the manual which was a major reason for choosing the V12V.
I was surprised to see that the XKR has had its price reduced by about £15k - an XK Dynamic, a top spec R Portfolio by any other name, is now listed at £70k. ]
+1
The Manual V12 is indeed much more involving, for me reason not to even consider a Vanquish II (which TT3 box is even less involving then the SS3) over my current DBS.
Didn;t notice the extra power particularly, VERY impressive SS box, marginally better damping but somehow lost some of the specialness compared to the involvement I feel with V12V
I'm sure V12VS will sell well, but whilst with plenty of crossover, to an arguably larger and certainly slightly different market
I really think Aston have lost a trick with this car and enthusiasts of other brands have said the same thing about 'their' brand when they dropped the last of their manuals, such as Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche on the GT3, etc
Aston don't compete in bragging rights territory for power, weight, acceleration, track times, latest tech, etc. People buy them heavily influenced by their emotional pull. I actually think it's right for Vanquish to be a 2 pedal car, as more of a GT and don't necessarily think conventional auto (rather than SS) in that car is a problem, particularly if the latest 8 speed version
But V12V has lost one of it;s big party tricks in dropping the stick and whilst I am of course bias and conflicted, I suspect in 5/10/20 yrs time, it is the 3 pedal V12V which stands much more chance of being looked back on as a cult favourite in the same way Vanquish Mk1 is now and perhaps the way manual DBS might become. I doubt V12VS will be looked back on in quite the same way
jonby said:
I really think Aston have lost a trick with this car and enthusiasts of other brands have said the same thing about 'their' brand when they dropped the last of their manuals, such as Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche on the GT3, etc
But V12V has lost one of it's big party tricks in dropping the stick, and whilst I am of course bias and conflicted, I suspect in 5/10/20 yrs time, it is the 3 pedal V12V which stands much more chance of being looked back on as a cult favourite, in the same way Vanquish Mk1 is now and perhaps the way manual DBS might become. I doubt V12VS will be looked back on in quite the same way.
But V12V has lost one of it's big party tricks in dropping the stick, and whilst I am of course bias and conflicted, I suspect in 5/10/20 yrs time, it is the 3 pedal V12V which stands much more chance of being looked back on as a cult favourite, in the same way Vanquish Mk1 is now and perhaps the way manual DBS might become. I doubt V12VS will be looked back on in quite the same way.
I wonder if any consideration was originally given, to allowing customers the choice on the V12VS, for either Manual or Sportshift 3. The order book would then make it clear what buyers want.
With the DBS, AML say there were almost no manual orders, towards the end of that model run. As you say, for a GT car, that is probably to be expected.
For the V12VS though, although some of us might only buy a manual sports car, most new buyers probably now want (what they think is) a Formula One gearchange.
Edited by Jon39 on Tuesday 11th March 20:10
Jon39 said:
I wonder if any consideration was originally given, to allowing customers the choice on the V12VS, for either Manual or Sportshift 3. The order book would then make it clear what buyers want.
With the DBS, AML say there were almost no manual orders, towards the end of that model run. As you say, for a GT car, that is probably to be expected.
For the V12VS though, although some of us might only buy a manual sports car, most new buyers probably now want (what they think is) a Formula One gearchange.
The manufacturers need to push sales of 2 pedal boxes to make it easier to get achieve figures on acceleration, lap times, fuel efficiency, emissions, traction, etc - some of those factors push sales and others for compliance reasons. Manufacturers & dealers stuff the showroom full of 2 pedal versions of cars where there;s a choice of gearbox, make it hard in the case of AM to justify buying a new car, because of the premium over dealer spec cars, so there is barely a choice of a manual. Buyers worry manual will be hard to sell. Not surprising so little 'demand' for manuals now. How many DBS manuals were in dealer showrooms once TT was launched - effectively none. So not surprising no sales of manual.
What makes it particularly daft in the case of Aston, unlike on say the 991 GT3 or 458, is that the gearbox in V12VS is effectively a manual box so in relative terms, easier & cheaper to offer a manual alternative alongside SS. If they did (genuinely) offer both, as in being plenty of dealer examples, I'd have thought at least 20% of current V12VS buyers would go for manual and some current V12V or DBS (manual) owners would switch instead of staying in their current cars
I have a friend looking to get back in the V12 Aston fold and he will only consider manual so he reluctantly won't look at V12VS or new Vanquish and is looking at a 2nd hand DBS instead
Tried both weekend before last as in process of deciding next purchase.Unfortunately conditions not ideal so probably not the most valid comparison.Manual v Paddles has been discussed in detail here and elsewhere.Ultimately personal preference.I thought main difference between cars was traction.I never felt older car was able to put its power down as well as newer car and to me felt more nervous and less balanced as a result.Bizarrely because of that I felt it was more fun and would be the one of the two I would go for !
jonby said:
I have a friend looking to get back in the V12 Aston fold and he will only consider manual so he reluctantly won't look at V12VS or new Vanquish and is looking at a 2nd hand DBS instead
Your friend could always follow that popular practice of Vanquish 1 owners.
There is a firm, who we must no longer mention, who could convert a V12VS to manual. Maybe even a seven speed manual, although six is probably quite enough, with so much torque.
jonby said:
I think whatever demand there may or not be from buyers if they were given genuine 'free choice', which I have no doubt would of course still include plenty of people wanting 2 pedals, it is artificially distorted by the manufacturers & dealers
The manufacturers need to push sales of 2 pedal boxes to make it easier to get achieve figures on acceleration, lap times, fuel efficiency, emissions, traction, etc - some of those factors push sales and others for compliance reasons. Manufacturers & dealers stuff the showroom full of 2 pedal versions of cars where there;s a choice of gearbox, make it hard in the case of AM to justify buying a new car, because of the premium over dealer spec cars, so there is barely a choice of a manual. Buyers worry manual will be hard to sell. Not surprising so little 'demand' for manuals now. How many DBS manuals were in dealer showrooms once TT was launched - effectively none. So not surprising no sales of manual.
What makes it particularly daft in the case of Aston, unlike on say the 991 GT3 or 458, is that the gearbox in V12VS is effectively a manual box so in relative terms, easier & cheaper to offer a manual alternative alongside SS. If they did (genuinely) offer both, as in being plenty of dealer examples, I'd have thought at least 20% of current V12VS buyers would go for manual and some current V12V or DBS (manual) owners would switch instead of staying in their current cars
I have a friend looking to get back in the V12 Aston fold and he will only consider manual so he reluctantly won't look at V12VS or new Vanquish and is looking at a 2nd hand DBS instead
I agree. When I was car shopping, and bought my V8V (manual), I looked at many cars, including the Ferrari California. It was officially available with a manual 'box at the time, but the dealer basically refused to order one for the various reasons you mentioned. The manufacturers need to push sales of 2 pedal boxes to make it easier to get achieve figures on acceleration, lap times, fuel efficiency, emissions, traction, etc - some of those factors push sales and others for compliance reasons. Manufacturers & dealers stuff the showroom full of 2 pedal versions of cars where there;s a choice of gearbox, make it hard in the case of AM to justify buying a new car, because of the premium over dealer spec cars, so there is barely a choice of a manual. Buyers worry manual will be hard to sell. Not surprising so little 'demand' for manuals now. How many DBS manuals were in dealer showrooms once TT was launched - effectively none. So not surprising no sales of manual.
What makes it particularly daft in the case of Aston, unlike on say the 991 GT3 or 458, is that the gearbox in V12VS is effectively a manual box so in relative terms, easier & cheaper to offer a manual alternative alongside SS. If they did (genuinely) offer both, as in being plenty of dealer examples, I'd have thought at least 20% of current V12VS buyers would go for manual and some current V12V or DBS (manual) owners would switch instead of staying in their current cars
I have a friend looking to get back in the V12 Aston fold and he will only consider manual so he reluctantly won't look at V12VS or new Vanquish and is looking at a 2nd hand DBS instead
waremark said:
"I had a brief go in a V12VS yesterday with its newer SportShift (compared with an older V8 Roadster), and was surprised when it didn't move off when I released the footbrake. It did not start to creep until I applied the accelerator. I thought this seemed a much better system for manoeuvering (and waiting at lights you could apply the handbrake and release the footbrake in order to avoid dazzling the guy behind, if you bother about that).
The problem with this is that the idiot behind you thinks you're starting to go and then stomps on the gas thus ramming into the rear end of your P&J. Ask me how I know. The rest of your comments on the V12VS and its SSIII gearbox match my experience when I spent a day on the track with one last year.
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