Insurance Valuation Issue
Discussion
Hi all, after a little advice.
I was involved in an accident a couple of weeks ago (not my fault, although liability still pending as other party was a european lorry driver. I have witnesses though, so not expecting an issue). My '99 E36 328i Convertible is a total loss (cat C write off) and I am now at the position of negotiating a value with my insurer.
They have offered me £2205, upping it to £2340 which they claim is the value based on the Glasses guide. The time of year doesn't help when looking for a convertible, and E36s in the spec and condition of my car seem rarer than hen's teeth.
I've sent them a number of adverts for similar vehicles (eg This one) to try to justify a higher valuation, but they don't seem prepared to shift above £2340. For that money I would be looking at something much higher mileage, older and non-M-Sport, which I don't feel puts me back into the position I was in before the accident.
Can anyone advise what I should do next? They've just told me that they will be sending me a payment for £2205 (minus my excess) but that this does not constitute acceptance of any offer on my part, which seems a little strange to me.
Any thoughts and comments gratefully received.
I was involved in an accident a couple of weeks ago (not my fault, although liability still pending as other party was a european lorry driver. I have witnesses though, so not expecting an issue). My '99 E36 328i Convertible is a total loss (cat C write off) and I am now at the position of negotiating a value with my insurer.
They have offered me £2205, upping it to £2340 which they claim is the value based on the Glasses guide. The time of year doesn't help when looking for a convertible, and E36s in the spec and condition of my car seem rarer than hen's teeth.
I've sent them a number of adverts for similar vehicles (eg This one) to try to justify a higher valuation, but they don't seem prepared to shift above £2340. For that money I would be looking at something much higher mileage, older and non-M-Sport, which I don't feel puts me back into the position I was in before the accident.
Can anyone advise what I should do next? They've just told me that they will be sending me a payment for £2205 (minus my excess) but that this does not constitute acceptance of any offer on my part, which seems a little strange to me.
Any thoughts and comments gratefully received.
Have you been only e-mailing or have they called you yet?
I did exactly the same as you in sending in comparables, you need a few more if possible though, if they still don't budge formally reject that offer but make yourself available to discuss and list all of the reasons why yours is worth more than their offer based on others in the market.
Depending on insurer they may call you (my brothers did when I sorted it for him), we discussed it over the phone and trawled autotrader at set permaters we both entered at the same time (a fiesta so more available).
I then picked the faults of all those that were offered at less than his offer, and those above until we reached a fair price.
Over the call we went from his initial offer of £2,800 up to £3,550 where we settled.
(purchased the car 2 years previously with 3k miles at 3 years old for £3,900, it had 34k and barely a straight panel at 5 years so think I did ok!)
I did exactly the same as you in sending in comparables, you need a few more if possible though, if they still don't budge formally reject that offer but make yourself available to discuss and list all of the reasons why yours is worth more than their offer based on others in the market.
Depending on insurer they may call you (my brothers did when I sorted it for him), we discussed it over the phone and trawled autotrader at set permaters we both entered at the same time (a fiesta so more available).
I then picked the faults of all those that were offered at less than his offer, and those above until we reached a fair price.
Over the call we went from his initial offer of £2,800 up to £3,550 where we settled.
(purchased the car 2 years previously with 3k miles at 3 years old for £3,900, it had 34k and barely a straight panel at 5 years so think I did ok!)
Thanks for the quick response.
This has been a mix of calls and emails. I've stated on the calls that I cannot find anything close to my previous car for the money they are offering so sent them 5 links to cars that were either similar, or were £3000+ but much lower value cars (much older, higher mileage, not m-tech, smaller engine). That's when they came back with the revised offer, which I've just had in writing via email.
Their response just now includes:
In my mind, and that of the financial ombudsman, "market value" means what I would expect to pay for a similar car at a reputable dealer. If they can find me a very good condition car of the same age/spec as mine for under £2.5k then I'm all ears, but until then I guess I'll just keep rejected their offer (can I do this ad infinitum?)
This has been a mix of calls and emails. I've stated on the calls that I cannot find anything close to my previous car for the money they are offering so sent them 5 links to cars that were either similar, or were £3000+ but much lower value cars (much older, higher mileage, not m-tech, smaller engine). That's when they came back with the revised offer, which I've just had in writing via email.
Their response just now includes:
insurance company said:
We have decided to settle your claim on a "total loss" basis. We have based our valuation on the current market value of your car, calculated as follows:
Market Value £2,340.00
Less Excess £350.00
Less Salvage Value £0.00
Settlement figure £1,990.00
The settlement amount shown is subject to us completing all necessary checks.
We reserve the right to amend this amount, should further information come to light.
Payment will follow shortly. This payment will not prejudice your position.
If your car is still at a garage or in storage, please remove any personal belongings immediately, as we will shortly move it to a place of storage.
If we do not hear from you within the next 14 days, we will assume that you accept the valuation and will dispose of your car.
I will be writing to them again shortly to reject this offer formally. Just not sure where I stand legally.Market Value £2,340.00
Less Excess £350.00
Less Salvage Value £0.00
Settlement figure £1,990.00
The settlement amount shown is subject to us completing all necessary checks.
We reserve the right to amend this amount, should further information come to light.
Payment will follow shortly. This payment will not prejudice your position.
If your car is still at a garage or in storage, please remove any personal belongings immediately, as we will shortly move it to a place of storage.
If we do not hear from you within the next 14 days, we will assume that you accept the valuation and will dispose of your car.
In my mind, and that of the financial ombudsman, "market value" means what I would expect to pay for a similar car at a reputable dealer. If they can find me a very good condition car of the same age/spec as mine for under £2.5k then I'm all ears, but until then I guess I'll just keep rejected their offer (can I do this ad infinitum?)
Are you claiming for anything else or asking for a hire car etc ????
When faced with a similar problem I went down the route of full and final settlement as opposed to the vehicles value.
Suggesting that you will be wanting a hire car in the interim / PI claim may persuade them to promptly offer the correct amoumt.
When faced with a similar problem I went down the route of full and final settlement as opposed to the vehicles value.
Suggesting that you will be wanting a hire car in the interim / PI claim may persuade them to promptly offer the correct amoumt.
standardman said:
Are you claiming for anything else or asking for a hire car etc ????
When faced with a similar problem I went down the route of full and final settlement as opposed to the vehicles value.
Suggesting that you will be wanting a hire car in the interim / PI claim may persuade them to promptly offer the correct amoumt.
I'm not entitled to a hire car as I did not add it as additional cover and, because the other party is non-UK, it is not classed as an "insurable loss" apparently. When faced with a similar problem I went down the route of full and final settlement as opposed to the vehicles value.
Suggesting that you will be wanting a hire car in the interim / PI claim may persuade them to promptly offer the correct amoumt.
From the insurance company I am claiming for the cost of replacing my vehicle and nothing else. From the legal insurance I am claiming for my loss of excess, the cost of recovering my vehicle after the accident and a few trips to the osteopath (ie reasonable, out of pocket expenses).
wiggy001 said:
I'm not entitled to a hire car as I did not add it as additional cover and, because the other party is non-UK, it is not classed as an "insurable loss" apparently.
From the insurance company I am claiming for the cost of replacing my vehicle and nothing else. From the legal insurance I am claiming for my loss of excess, the cost of recovering my vehicle after the accident and a few trips to the osteopath (ie reasonable, out of pocket expenses).
The cost of recovering your vehicle will be paid by your own insurers as part of standard comp cover.From the insurance company I am claiming for the cost of replacing my vehicle and nothing else. From the legal insurance I am claiming for my loss of excess, the cost of recovering my vehicle after the accident and a few trips to the osteopath (ie reasonable, out of pocket expenses).
TwigtheWonderkid said:
The cost of recovering your vehicle will be paid by your own insurers as part of standard comp cover.
It was definitely the legal department that said they would be dealing with the claim for this, which would be paid with other out of pocket expenses rather than with the payout on my car.Saying that, the insurer (a senior rank in the Navy) are using "senior rank in the navy legal services" for the out of pocket stuff, so that might muddy the waters a little.
wiggy001 said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
The cost of recovering your vehicle will be paid by your own insurers as part of standard comp cover.
It was definitely the legal department that said they would be dealing with the claim for this, which would be paid with other out of pocket expenses rather than with the payout on my car.Saying that, the insurer (a senior rank in the Navy) are using "senior rank in the navy legal services" for the out of pocket stuff, so that might muddy the waters a little.
Do not let them remove the car from the garage!!! They have not paid you so the car is still yours.The insurance company have to give you the cost of buying the same car in the same condition. The Ombusman has this approach and it will be inforced if need be! You need to find five or six similar cars to yours,if less spec explain. Print them all off,then put a covering letter in telling them why your car is worth X to replace. Somewhere on the obusman web site there is a section all about what should be a fair replacement value.
I have just had a thought! Contact one of the BMW clubs and ask them for a valuation.There must be a few specialist older style BMW dealers that who would be able to give a descent market value.When I was fighting an insurance company for the loss of a porsche 930 a few years ago.I was amazed at how helpful a lot of classic dealers were. Best of luck!! DO NOT GIVE UP!!!!!!
therevday said:
Do not let them remove the car from the garage!!! They have not paid you so the car is still yours.The insurance company have to give you the cost of buying the same car in the same condition. The Ombusman has this approach and it will be inforced if need be! You need to find five or six similar cars to yours,if less spec explain. Print them all off,then put a covering letter in telling them why your car is worth X to replace. Somewhere on the obusman web site there is a section all about what should be a fair replacement value.
"Assessing the value of a used vehicle is not an exact science – though we take all relevant evidence into account to make sure we are as consistent as possible:We pay most attention to valuations given in motor-trade guides, such as Parkers’, Glass’s and CAP. These are based on extensive nationwide research of actual selling prices (rather than just advertised prices).
Evidence from an independent engineer can be helpful, if available – particularly where the vehicle is not a standard one (for example, because it has been heavily modified)
We may also use evidence from an insurer’s engineer – but we will need to assess the content and independence of the report.
We do not usually find advertisements for similar vehicles very persuasive. A vehicle may often be sold for less than the advertised price – and differences in mileage, year of registration, model type etc can significantly affect the value.
This link http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
dacouch said:
We do not usually find advertisements for similar vehicles very persuasive. A vehicle may often be sold for less than the advertised price – and differences in mileage, year of registration, model type etc can significantly affect the value.
This link http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
Would this include eBay auction sales?This link http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
Thanks again for the feedback, and the thought about contacting car clubs which I hadn't considered.
My policy makes no reference to using Glasses Guide for valuations:
There are a few inferior cars going for the same or more money so in my view I should at least be able to expect this kind of valuation. £1000+ under these prices (or 60% ish of the value), won't cut it.
I'll keep pushing...
My policy makes no reference to using Glasses Guide for valuations:
Insurance Policy Book said:
Market Value: The cost of replacing your car, with one of a similar make, model, year, mileage and condition based on market prices at the time of the loss. Use of the term ‘market’ in which you would normally shop for your car e.g. retail value, will not apply if you buy your car privately or at auction.
Now, ignoring the "similar make, model" bit (would anyone expect to have to buy a cheaper marque because it is considered "similar"), the "market I normally shop for my cars" is main dealers, but I'm not going to find a 99 plate E36 in a main dealer. So I'm not sure how this definition works anyway, but regardless, I've only found one car online of the same make, model and year, but it's a private sale 200 miles away and for £3500.There are a few inferior cars going for the same or more money so in my view I should at least be able to expect this kind of valuation. £1000+ under these prices (or 60% ish of the value), won't cut it.
I'll keep pushing...
MNBrennan said:
Would this include eBay auction sales?
The FOS tend to accept completed ebay sales as good indicators of value as these show sold prices.Sending in autotrader adverts etc can and does work with Insurers but it should be remembered the insurer may ignore them and stick to the FOS guidelines, if you then go to the Ombudsman they have a habit of ignoring adverts them in favour of what the guides say.
People have a habit of just printing out adverts for the most expensive cars and sending those in, they forget the Insurer will often then do the same search using your post code and can then see the cheaper adverts for the equivalent car.
It's well worth reading the link a few times so you understand how the Ombudsman views valuing a car as you can use it to your advantage. For example if one guide gives a value of £1000 you may find the other two guides value the car higher. The FOS guidelines explain what they would do in this situation or if each guide gave a different value.
The following paragraphs can have a significant effect on your value if they affect you as Insurers staff are often ignorant of these...
"We are likely to award the consumer the full retail value – even if they inadvertently underestimated the value of the vehicle when filling in the proposal form or luckily bought the vehicle for less than it was worth. And we have seen exceptional cases where a vehicle’s value genuinely rose between the date it was bought and the date of the damage or theft."
and
"If the consumer only recently bought their car second-hand, we generally assume that they paid the market value price – although we will consider any evidence the insurer can provide that this was not the case."
and
"The value of a vehicle is affected by the recorded mileage. If a vehicle is found to have had its mileage unlawfully lowered (or “clocked”) its value will be reduced to that of a vehicle with the true mileage.
If we think that the consumer was not aware that the mileage had been “clocked” when they bought and insured the vehicle, we usually say that it is unfair for the insurer to pay less than the full market value of a vehicle with the mileage the consumer believed was correct."
and
"If the consumer knew they were buying a repaired write-off, they are likely to have paid less for it. In these cases, we may decide it is fair for the insurer to make an appropriate deduction – generally not more than 20% unless the insurer can provide evidence to warrant a higher deduction.
But a consumer who unknowingly bought and insured a previously written-off vehicle is likely to have paid full price for it – and a full insurance premium. If we think it is likely the consumer did not know the vehicle’s history – and the repairs were not obviously noticeable – we are unlikely to agree that the insurer should pay less than the full market value."
wiggy001 said:
Now, ignoring the "similar make, model" bit (would anyone expect to have to buy a cheaper marque because it is considered "similar"), the "market I normally shop for my cars" is main dealers, but I'm not going to find a 99 plate E36 in a main dealer. So I'm not sure how this definition works anyway, but regardless, I've only found one car online of the same make, model and year, but it's a private sale 200 miles away and for £3500.
There are a few inferior cars going for the same or more money so in my view I should at least be able to expect this kind of valuation. £1000+ under these prices (or 60% ish of the value), won't cut it.
I'll keep pushing...
The Insurer (I'm guessing it's Allianz or a cheapy) cannot insist on valuing it as per the channel you bought it through, the Ombudsman is very clear on how the car should be valued.There are a few inferior cars going for the same or more money so in my view I should at least be able to expect this kind of valuation. £1000+ under these prices (or 60% ish of the value), won't cut it.
I'll keep pushing...
Read the link and quote it to the Insurers, you may find that it will come under one of the unusual parts of the ombudsmans guidance due to the difficulty in sourcing / valuing it
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