RE: Scottish deaths up as speed cameras bite
Wednesday 24th November 2004
Scottish deaths up as speed cameras bite
People die while authorities remain 'addicted to the income'
Scottish Executive figures released today confirm a nine per cent rise in deaths on Scotland's roads in 2003.
Safe Speed has long warned of rises in fatal road accidents closely associated with an over reliance on speed cameras.
Founder of the Safe Speed road safety campaign Paul Smith said, "How many more people have to die on the roads while government doggedly pursues the wrong road safety policy? When will they realise that an over-reliance on speed cameras is killing us?"
Smith added, "Many people think that 'it's obvious' that speed cameras will make the roads safer. But for every complex problem there's a solution that's neat, simple, obvious and completely wrong.
"Speed cameras are the wrong solution. Everyone is distracted from the real causes of crashes. Drivers are becoming obsessed with their speedometers and the location of the next camera, but they need to be looking at the road ahead. Local authorities and the camera partnerships are obsessed with their own faulty solution, and are becoming addicted to the income."
Smith is calling for the scrapping of speed cameras. "They have failed. Road deaths are going up despite huge ongoing improvements in vehicle safety and paramedic care. These improvements swamp the growth in traffic and deaths should be going down. Bad policy is killing us. It has to stop."
Discussion
Nine percent is a huge amount in 2003!
I assume though, like all Labours promises, their target for that hige reduction in road deaths by 2000 and whenever, will be another failed project, and they won't hold themselves accountable. They'll put the blame on camera vandals and the like.
Labour are scum, and people are dying because they can't do their job properly.
I really hope that the media (bbc), starts doing their job properly, and starts doing their job to inform the public of the government incompetency in this matter!
What next year, more deaths and more "safety" camera's...
This is really sickening. All those lives are not statistics for the government to spin, they are real people who may have died because of poor roads, bad road markings, drunk, drugged up, bad, uninsured drivers... Where do the "safety" camera's pull them up?
The government should be ashamed, but they won't be, they'll push the blame and make this rise in deaths seem not a big thing, but it IS...!
Down with Labour!!!
Dave
I assume though, like all Labours promises, their target for that hige reduction in road deaths by 2000 and whenever, will be another failed project, and they won't hold themselves accountable. They'll put the blame on camera vandals and the like.
Labour are scum, and people are dying because they can't do their job properly.
I really hope that the media (bbc), starts doing their job properly, and starts doing their job to inform the public of the government incompetency in this matter!
What next year, more deaths and more "safety" camera's...
This is really sickening. All those lives are not statistics for the government to spin, they are real people who may have died because of poor roads, bad road markings, drunk, drugged up, bad, uninsured drivers... Where do the "safety" camera's pull them up?
The government should be ashamed, but they won't be, they'll push the blame and make this rise in deaths seem not a big thing, but it IS...!
Down with Labour!!!
Dave
stooz said:
Paul, whats your solution? I cant read your site, my office has deemed it unsuitable and blocked it, along with camera location sites.. 
I assume in summary its: better education?
We've recently published a 5,000 word draft manifesto. It's discussed nearby:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=136856&f=10&h=0
Education, yes
incentives, yes
law applied to real safety risks
information (sort of low level education) - VERY IMPORTANT
There's a final version in preparation that will be available as a PDF.
"Smith is calling for the scrapping of speed cameras"
Really? As much as I don't like them in stupid places I don't see that they are not useful if used carefully as part of a greater plan (rather than relying on them 100%). It seems the policy is the problem rather than the tool...
Rob
Really? As much as I don't like them in stupid places I don't see that they are not useful if used carefully as part of a greater plan (rather than relying on them 100%). It seems the policy is the problem rather than the tool...
Rob
Rob_the_Sparky said:
"Smith is calling for the scrapping of speed cameras"
Really? As much as I don't like them in stupid places I don't see that they are not useful if used carefully as part of a greater plan (rather than relying on them 100%). It seems the policy is the problem rather than the tool...
Rob
The point as I understand it is this. Go back to the very first Gatso installed in this country, t'was in London on a 30 where drivers were blatting at speeds in three figures and falling off the island at the next bend a short distance away. After installation things changed.
What has happened is that the experiment has been continued and expanded. There is now a whole industry which depends upon these things being proved to work.
I could go on about the things which have been done by people with the best of intentions but it has all been discussed here countless times.
Where we are today is that the situation with speed cameras and the partnerships has become so tarnished, which unfortunately also poisons public/police relations, that I can see no other answer but to chuck the whole lot out and start again.
It is realised that there is a significant risk of throwing a baby out with the bath water somewhere.
To stop that one should say well there should be a proper review of limits, cameras, trigger points, justice system and so on. Unfortunately the authorities have got their fingers so dirty on this one the trust has gone.
Rob_the_Sparky said:
"Smith is calling for the scrapping of speed cameras"
Really? As much as I don't like them in stupid places I don't see that they are not useful if used carefully as part of a greater plan (rather than relying on them 100%). It seems the policy is the problem rather than the tool...
The policy has tainted the tool, the speed limit, the police public relationship and public faith in official road safety policy.
All these things are far more important than speed cameras, and speed cameras must be scrapped to begin work on restoring these other factors.
We also have massive "vested interest" and "addicted to income" problems. Camera manufacturers, importers, distributors and installers put massive resources into convincing politicians, cuncillors, senior police and road safety personnel that the right decisions are being made. This must be stopped dead.
It's FAR too late for cameras. They MUST all be scrapped. See:
www.safespeed.org.uk/cameras.html
>> Edited by safespeed on Wednesday 24th November 13:51
What a surprise! They're effectively killing people in the name of the law, while spinning their cheesy do-goodishness and raking in the revenue. I wonder if, one fine day, these people will appear before a court to account for their actions.
The most incredible this is, is that there will still be people, including contributors to this site, who will repeat ad nauseum, that going slower means safer (more time to react etc).
Will such people ever see the full picture?
The most incredible this is, is that there will still be people, including contributors to this site, who will repeat ad nauseum, that going slower means safer (more time to react etc).
Will such people ever see the full picture?
cdp said:
Maybe all speed cameras should be preceeded by vehicle activated signs.
Maybe the authorities' concentration should not be on speed but improving overall driver skills. That way, more aware drivers would see concentration on blanket speed limits for what they are: an irrelevance.
The death bumps will take a little longer james_j said:
Maybe all speed cameras should be preceeded by vehicle activated signs.
Maybe the authorities' concentration should not be on speed but improving overall driver skills. That way, more aware drivers would see concentration on blanket speed limits for what they are: an irrelevance.
Yes I'm quite sure a good many of us would agree with that. I still wonder what would be the effect if we were to retain a system of speed limits in built-up areas but abolish the NSL entirely, which is what I would like to see happen. I may be mistaken, but I honestly doubt if there would be a substantial increase in the speeds at which people drive. It has long been my feeling that people drive at a speed they feel is reasonable in the circumstances. The use of speed cameras will have influenced that to a degree, but just how significant is that across the whole scene? Maybe not very significant if the camera effect is offset against the reduction in police patrols.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I just want to remind everyone that the topic is about Scottish deaths and therefore relates to how the speed enforcement situation is up here.
Some of you may not know this but Paul lives in a beautiful part of the north of Scotland and the driving conditions are quite different, and consequentially so is the causation effect.
I am repeating some details I stated some months back, but they are relevant to this post.
When I lived in Skye, I discovered that despite the island's beauty and apparent calm, the accident rate was utterly collosal and totally out of proportion to the population.
A study of the figures however revealed that it was almost non existent in the winter, even although the roads were dark, flooded, icy etc. It was mostly skilled, local drivers using the roads.
In the summer the tourists arrived and they quite literally bring death with them every single year.
The last year I lived there we attempted to involve the authorities to enhance road safety; there hadn't been a single prosecution of a foreign driver even although technically there had been cases of manslaughter.
Nothing was done and the season lapsed into winter and the tourists all went home.
In November the traffic police arrived from Inverness in a patrol car, set up a speed trap outside the straight coming into Portree, where incidentally no one can ever remember an accident, and booked some forty odd speeders, all local people, all to a man with clean licences; then left.
It was reported that clearly there was a serious speeding problem on Skye and the locals were causing the accidents; I'll not tell you the response they got!!!
What do you do with people who make the decisions, obviously at senior level to behave like this?
What is it they hope to achieve, and do they honestly think they can get away with it?
Those coppers are very fortunate they got off the island without being tackled; I'm not joking when I say that, some of the Highland people will just not tolerate this, law or otherwise.
Some of you may not know this but Paul lives in a beautiful part of the north of Scotland and the driving conditions are quite different, and consequentially so is the causation effect.
I am repeating some details I stated some months back, but they are relevant to this post.
When I lived in Skye, I discovered that despite the island's beauty and apparent calm, the accident rate was utterly collosal and totally out of proportion to the population.
A study of the figures however revealed that it was almost non existent in the winter, even although the roads were dark, flooded, icy etc. It was mostly skilled, local drivers using the roads.
In the summer the tourists arrived and they quite literally bring death with them every single year.
The last year I lived there we attempted to involve the authorities to enhance road safety; there hadn't been a single prosecution of a foreign driver even although technically there had been cases of manslaughter.
Nothing was done and the season lapsed into winter and the tourists all went home.
In November the traffic police arrived from Inverness in a patrol car, set up a speed trap outside the straight coming into Portree, where incidentally no one can ever remember an accident, and booked some forty odd speeders, all local people, all to a man with clean licences; then left.
It was reported that clearly there was a serious speeding problem on Skye and the locals were causing the accidents; I'll not tell you the response they got!!!
What do you do with people who make the decisions, obviously at senior level to behave like this?
What is it they hope to achieve, and do they honestly think they can get away with it?
Those coppers are very fortunate they got off the island without being tackled; I'm not joking when I say that, some of the Highland people will just not tolerate this, law or otherwise.
medicineman said:
Isle of Man runs on a No Speed Limit NSL. What are the death rates like there? Any idea?
The law there seems to be quite brutal on speeding in the towns and villages where there is a limit, but there is no limit at all on the open road.
The mountain road up over Snaefell is wonderful, very, very fast.
I have an old pal living there, I'll try and find out from him about the accident statistics out of interest.
IOLAIRE said:IOLAIRE, do you (or anyone else) have a monthly breakdown of the fatality figures for Scotland?
A study of the figures however revealed that it was almost non existent in the winter, even although the roads were dark, flooded, icy etc. It was mostly skilled, local drivers using the roads.
In the summer the tourists arrived and they quite literally bring death with them every single year.
Is this a good idea? If almost all of the accidents really are caused by tourists, then all NIPs to locals should automatically be cancelled. Put up loads of cameras to force Johnny Foreigner (not the one on PH) to slow right down to a speed where they can only do minimal damage when the cock it up. Thoughts?
supraman2954 said:
A study of the figures however revealed that it was almost non existent in the winter, even although the roads were dark, flooded, icy etc. It was mostly skilled, local drivers using the roads.
In the summer the tourists arrived and they quite literally bring death with them every single year.
IOLAIRE, do you (or anyone else) have a monthly breakdown of the fatality figures for Scotland?
Is this a good idea? If almost all of the accidents really are caused by tourists, then all NIPs to locals should automatically be cancelled. Put up loads of cameras to force Johnny Foreigner (not the one on PH) to slow right down to a speed where they can only do minimal damage when the cock it up. Thoughts?
Supraman, all the accident statistics for Scotland are to be found in two sources. The first is the Chief Constable's annual report for whatever force you're interested in and the second is the County or Shire's own Road Safety annual report.
You should be able to have a look at these in any library. They make bloody interesting reading!!
Speeding has nothing to do with the tourist based accidents; a great many of them are caused by people admiring the scenery and not paying attention, coming out of a lay by onto the wrong side of the road, and sheer, dreadful bad driving.
I'm going to make what some would consider a sweeping statement, but I'm afraid it's based on real experience.
Beyond all doubt, and by a huge margin, the drivers that I found worst in Scotland were the Dutch, I'm talking consistently and dangerously.
I tried to put some sense to this and came up with the following; they seem to be so attracted to visiting Scotland and the reason for this is probably the mountains, simply because they don't have any.
Dutch enforcement is utterly draconian, they invented the speed camera and totally subjugate their motorists with it, at the expense of driver training.
They come over here and are probably stunned by the relative freedom of movement on Scottish roads.
They seem to have no sense whatever of other drivers; they hire large caravanettes and cause collosal traffic jams with no regard for the chaos behind them.
The one accident I personally came across in Skye was a Dutch woman who had REVERSED out of a layby onto the wrong side of the road on a blind corner at an angle and a local lad came round the corner at the wrong time and had nowhere to go. It cost him his life and the woman went home, no prosecution; outrageous!
I've no doubt this will result in me being blasted by indignant Dutch motorists, but the evidence is there to see all summer long in the Highlands and nothing is being done to put it right.
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