Lack of police interest in some crimes
Discussion
I know at times the police must hear "85 mph on the motorway is safe. Go and catch some real criminals", but I've always personally respected the law - if you speed, it's at your own risk, and if you get caught, don't moan about it - it's the law after all. But I thought I'd share my experience which has really altered my impression of the police - I understand that they can't investigate everything but there are people out there wantonly breaking the law to a far greater degree with little police interest..
I have always been very careful about buying goods online, I run a good antivirus and minimise my online personal data, so beware, if this can happen to me it can happen to anyone;
A while ago I returned from holiday to find a number of phone contract letters sitting on my doormat. It turned out someone had somehow gotten hold of my name and address and falsified a number of other details to sign up for contracts in my name in a number of phone stores, and they walked away from these stores with over £3000 worth of phones, all in the space of one afternoon. Apparently ID checks in phone stores are sometimes not done properly even for people signing up for multiple contracts and handsets, which was news to me.
In response, I went down the usual phone company / equifax / CIFAS route, where both my credit report was sorted out, and the phones blocked (presumably after the criminal had already sold them onto unsuspecting people on ebay).
Shortly afterwards I started receiving their bank statements as they had used my address to open a bank account, but had forgotten to subscribe to online statement service. The first bank statement arrived to me in the post, giving me their own personal details and showed tens of failed mobile phone direct debit transactions - it was obviously an account made for the purpose of starting many mobile phone contracts fraudulently in store, from the number of transactions this person was clearly doing it again and again albeit with different fake details.
Naturally the sensible reaction was to call the police with my proof of crime and all the personal and financial details of the person who had done it, after-all they were guilty of over £3000 worth of mobile phone theft from my case plus a lot more phones from looking at their bank statement. But I couldn't believe the response - Irrespective of whether it's a crime, if you haven't directly lost any money yourself they won't even give it a crime reference number, and recommended calling CIFAS and the mobile phone providers.
An investigative attitude of using a technicality to not pursue a crime like this stinks of laziness, which saddens me, and lets down what I hope is still overall a hard working police force. I never thought someone could steal £3000 of goods without any police interest, but there you go. My recommendations to anyone else would be to instruct someone trusted to open your post in your absence - if I had been away on business I wouldn't have noticed this in time to deal with it. I bet it would have produced a completely different reaction if I had rang up reporting a number plate of a car 'speeding' down my road.
I have always been very careful about buying goods online, I run a good antivirus and minimise my online personal data, so beware, if this can happen to me it can happen to anyone;
A while ago I returned from holiday to find a number of phone contract letters sitting on my doormat. It turned out someone had somehow gotten hold of my name and address and falsified a number of other details to sign up for contracts in my name in a number of phone stores, and they walked away from these stores with over £3000 worth of phones, all in the space of one afternoon. Apparently ID checks in phone stores are sometimes not done properly even for people signing up for multiple contracts and handsets, which was news to me.
In response, I went down the usual phone company / equifax / CIFAS route, where both my credit report was sorted out, and the phones blocked (presumably after the criminal had already sold them onto unsuspecting people on ebay).
Shortly afterwards I started receiving their bank statements as they had used my address to open a bank account, but had forgotten to subscribe to online statement service. The first bank statement arrived to me in the post, giving me their own personal details and showed tens of failed mobile phone direct debit transactions - it was obviously an account made for the purpose of starting many mobile phone contracts fraudulently in store, from the number of transactions this person was clearly doing it again and again albeit with different fake details.
Naturally the sensible reaction was to call the police with my proof of crime and all the personal and financial details of the person who had done it, after-all they were guilty of over £3000 worth of mobile phone theft from my case plus a lot more phones from looking at their bank statement. But I couldn't believe the response - Irrespective of whether it's a crime, if you haven't directly lost any money yourself they won't even give it a crime reference number, and recommended calling CIFAS and the mobile phone providers.
An investigative attitude of using a technicality to not pursue a crime like this stinks of laziness, which saddens me, and lets down what I hope is still overall a hard working police force. I never thought someone could steal £3000 of goods without any police interest, but there you go. My recommendations to anyone else would be to instruct someone trusted to open your post in your absence - if I had been away on business I wouldn't have noticed this in time to deal with it. I bet it would have produced a completely different reaction if I had rang up reporting a number plate of a car 'speeding' down my road.
BusaMK said:
But I couldn't believe the response - Irrespective of whether it's a crime, if you haven't directly lost any money yourself they won't even give it a crime reference number, and recommended calling CIFAS and the mobile phone providers.
An investigative attitude of using a technicality to not pursue a crime like this stinks of laziness, which saddens me
It's the mobile phone providers/companies which are the victims. If you let their fraud department(s) know, they may want the details of the dodgy accounts and ask you to forward them in the post.An investigative attitude of using a technicality to not pursue a crime like this stinks of laziness, which saddens me
(Once they've done their investigation, if they then decide to involve the police, they will contact the relevant force - which may not be your local one depending on where in the country the fraudster is thought to be.)
The police don't have the time, inclination or resources to investigate such matters.
The finance/phone companies are viewed as the 'victims' as they are at financial loss, and if they did report matters, the police wouldn't do much anyway. It's almost viewed as a victimless crime, big companies can absorb such losses.
I imagine it boils your piss knowing some scrote has gotten away with it, and no one seems to care.
The finance/phone companies are viewed as the 'victims' as they are at financial loss, and if they did report matters, the police wouldn't do much anyway. It's almost viewed as a victimless crime, big companies can absorb such losses.
I imagine it boils your piss knowing some scrote has gotten away with it, and no one seems to care.
The lack of action on behalf of the police is what causes crime like this to happen. No investigation = no chance of ever getting caught. The scrote simply carries on as long as they like.
Of course, if the police showed any interest and called it a 'crime' with a 'crime reference number' then they would have to do something about it. Which would involve work on their behalf, which they'd rather not do, so much easier to fob you off and go back to investigating 'hate crime' or some other such b
ks.
Oli.
Of course, if the police showed any interest and called it a 'crime' with a 'crime reference number' then they would have to do something about it. Which would involve work on their behalf, which they'd rather not do, so much easier to fob you off and go back to investigating 'hate crime' or some other such b
ks. Oli.
zcacogp said:
The lack of action on behalf of the police is what causes crime like this to happen. No investigation = no chance of ever getting caught. The scrote simply carries on as long as they like.
Of course, if the police showed any interest and called it a 'crime' with a 'crime reference number' then they would have to do something about it. Which would involve work on their behalf, which they'd rather not do, so much easier to fob you off and go back to investigating 'hate crime' or some other such bks.
Oli.
It needs to be reported by the victim, you need to have a victim willing to make/substantiate an allegation. For commercial reasons some victims may not want to report all the incidence where they may be considered by others to be victims. They may want to do some form of investigation themselves & report just those that they choose.Of course, if the police showed any interest and called it a 'crime' with a 'crime reference number' then they would have to do something about it. Which would involve work on their behalf, which they'd rather not do, so much easier to fob you off and go back to investigating 'hate crime' or some other such b
ks. Oli.
Conversely I just gave a statement to Police to help with a £300 cheque fraud. Not my loss as the bank repaid me straight away, but clearly felt there was enough to go after the scrote. Possibly he did it more than once -- I won't know unless I end up in court as a witness, I suppose.
vonhosen said:
It needs to be reported by the victim, you need to have a victim willing to make/substantiate an allegation. For commercial reasons some victims may not want to report all the incidence where they may be considered by others to be victims. They may want to do some form of investigation themselves & report just those that they choose.
So someone pretending to be you in order to gain 'credit' does not make you a victim because there has been no quantifiable financial loss ?Jimmyarm said:
So someone pretending to be you in order to gain 'credit' does not make you a victim because there has been no quantifiable financial loss ?
What have you lost? How much credit card fraud is reported to the police?
I'm not after a percentage of course. Most of it is absorbed by the credit card companies.
I worked with their investigators on one as the arresting officer. They just drew a line through £hundreds, suggesting that they were not interested. So it is not a case of the police not being interested as not wasting time.
Funny that this should come up today. Sadly not funny in the amusing sense.
I was phoned this afternoon by a credit card company who were processing yet another credit application in my name. Being registered on CIFAS appears to be working.
At the end of the phone call I asked them whether they would report it to the police via Action Fraud. They weren't going to. I can understand a commercial argument for not doing so (they've lost nothing so why waste more time) but their response was that even when they've pursued fraud cases the police just aren't interested. How hard can it be to get a result in these cases? There has to be an easy trail to follow. I gave Action Fraud the guy's phone number and address.
Even though it's the finance companies being defrauded it's not true to say that the individual being impersonated is not the victim. You have to fight the credit companies. You register on CIFAS. In my case I closed down a fraudulent website and eradicated references to it on the interweb. That all takes time and money and, since I'm self-employed, time is money as I could be out earning.
Best of luck OP. I hope you get it sorted soon.
Duncan
I was phoned this afternoon by a credit card company who were processing yet another credit application in my name. Being registered on CIFAS appears to be working.
At the end of the phone call I asked them whether they would report it to the police via Action Fraud. They weren't going to. I can understand a commercial argument for not doing so (they've lost nothing so why waste more time) but their response was that even when they've pursued fraud cases the police just aren't interested. How hard can it be to get a result in these cases? There has to be an easy trail to follow. I gave Action Fraud the guy's phone number and address.
Even though it's the finance companies being defrauded it's not true to say that the individual being impersonated is not the victim. You have to fight the credit companies. You register on CIFAS. In my case I closed down a fraudulent website and eradicated references to it on the interweb. That all takes time and money and, since I'm self-employed, time is money as I could be out earning.
Best of luck OP. I hope you get it sorted soon.
Duncan
FunkySon said:
How hard can it be to get a result in these cases? There has to be an easy trail to follow. I gave Action Fraud the guy's phone number and address.
Duncan
Harder than you would think. People aren't as stupid as you might imagine. They use fake names/addresses/details and are (some) virtually untraceable. They withdraw the money from a random bank, meaning the CCTV has to be gleaned from the bank, and then cross border investigations conducted, often with the account having been shut down as soon as the money is withdrawn anyway. DPA means it is never quick or easy to get info from banks regarding accounts and details, even when a fraud is being investigated. There are a tonne of authorisations to be gained, a mountain of paperwork, and quite often with little or no chance of success, and a lot of man hours used up. Mr A does not in general just pilfer the money into his own personal account and use it to do his weekly Tesco shop. These are sophisticated professionals, doing what they do best.Duncan
[quote=FunkySon]
Even though it's the finance companies being defrauded it's not true to say that the individual being impersonated is not the victim.
As the Fraud act only covers the loss of money or property, the individual being impersonated can't be classed as a victim, unless they can demonstrate such a loss. Damage to your credit rating, your reputation or even costs incurred putting it right don't count.
A significant amount of credit card, mortgage fraud etc is carried out by organised criminals who operate nationally, across Policing boundaries. That's why Action Fraud have become the central reporting point for all fraud as they are able to take a strategic overview. If they identify viable lines of enquiry they will forward the details to the LEA they think is best positioned to conduct the investigation which means that something reported in Cornwall may end up being investigated in Yorkshire. This may give the impression that your local Police "weren't interested".
By far the biggest issue however is the lack of interest from the financial institutions that are actually the victims. An example from my own experience is a well known supermarket which insisted on pursuing a case against a shoplifter for a 99p bottle of pop but whose banking division declined to follow up on a £30k fraud they'd initially reported themselves!
Even though it's the finance companies being defrauded it's not true to say that the individual being impersonated is not the victim.
As the Fraud act only covers the loss of money or property, the individual being impersonated can't be classed as a victim, unless they can demonstrate such a loss. Damage to your credit rating, your reputation or even costs incurred putting it right don't count.
A significant amount of credit card, mortgage fraud etc is carried out by organised criminals who operate nationally, across Policing boundaries. That's why Action Fraud have become the central reporting point for all fraud as they are able to take a strategic overview. If they identify viable lines of enquiry they will forward the details to the LEA they think is best positioned to conduct the investigation which means that something reported in Cornwall may end up being investigated in Yorkshire. This may give the impression that your local Police "weren't interested".
By far the biggest issue however is the lack of interest from the financial institutions that are actually the victims. An example from my own experience is a well known supermarket which insisted on pursuing a case against a shoplifter for a 99p bottle of pop but whose banking division declined to follow up on a £30k fraud they'd initially reported themselves!
Mk3Spitfire said:
Harder than you would think. People aren't as stupid as you might imagine. They use fake names/addresses/details and are (some) virtually untraceable. They withdraw the money from a random bank, meaning the CCTV has to be gleaned from the bank, and then cross border investigations conducted, often with the account having been shut down as soon as the money is withdrawn anyway. DPA means it is never quick or easy to get info from banks regarding accounts and details, even when a fraud is being investigated. There are a tonne of authorisations to be gained, a mountain of paperwork, and quite often with little or no chance of success, and a lot of man hours used up. Mr A does not in general just pilfer the money into his own personal account and use it to do his weekly Tesco shop. These are sophisticated professionals, doing what they do best.
You seem to have given up already. It's no wonder that crimes like this proliferate. I accept that my experience is limited but this is the second time that I've been targeted and in neither case was the criminal "sophisticated". They get away with it because no one appears to be bothered enough to investigate. How bad is it going to have to get before the police invest the time and effort to deter these people? Don't just blame the system and give up. Put the effort in and change the system so that these crimes don't end up in the "too difficult" file.Derek Smith said:
Jimmyarm said:
So someone pretending to be you in order to gain 'credit' does not make you a victim because there has been no quantifiable financial loss ?
What have you lost? How much credit card fraud is reported to the police?
I'm not after a percentage of course. Most of it is absorbed by the credit card companies.
I worked with their investigators on one as the arresting officer. They just drew a line through £hundreds, suggesting that they were not interested. So it is not a case of the police not being interested as not wasting time.
Some years ago, just after SOCA was created, the company I work for suffered a sustained barrage of attempted fraud. After an internal investigation we went to the local police who took details and passed it on to the local force (the delivery address for the attempted orders, which was all in the same area).
Shortly after I was contacted by SOCA officers who travelled down to take a statement. Our information formed part of the investigation and subsequent arrest and jailing of an individual.
Our financial loss? Around £200. Admittedly it was potentially thousands, but we had stopped these orders, and of course, this individual was doing this on a huge scale.
So the police are interested. Perhaps OP, you could try speaking to local CID or even your neighborhood officer, to find the right officer or department to speak to.
Victimless crime, ha! I bet the cost of such things runs into massive numbers, the victims are therefore the company, the economy.....etc.
All because the Police (through no fault of their own perhaps) are Ill equipped to deal with it. As others have said it's not surprising it becomes prolific.
Policing borders FFS. Those pesky professional crims sure are sneaky.
All because the Police (through no fault of their own perhaps) are Ill equipped to deal with it. As others have said it's not surprising it becomes prolific.
Policing borders FFS. Those pesky professional crims sure are sneaky.
Edited by waterwonder on Saturday 22 March 08:10
I just had a phone call from My credit card bank (Tesco) and someone has tried to use my card in New York tonight.
So after answering some security questions my card is now cancelled and in little bits, top marks to Tesco as it was spotted 10 minutes before they rang me. Bet the scum do not get caught
So after answering some security questions my card is now cancelled and in little bits, top marks to Tesco as it was spotted 10 minutes before they rang me. Bet the scum do not get caught
I came to realise that the police aren't interested, or are simply not capable of catching criminals, simple as that.
I suffered a break in a couple of years ago, with lots of rare parts being stolen.
As they had been collected over the previous 20 years, and were beyond ebay rare, I knew they had to crop up again on the internet, so I started scouring numerous websites and found a lot of my parts.
The police managed to get about 1% of the parts back, despite giving names, addresses, photographs of the parts on the various thieves facebook pages etc, the lot.
I had arranged through friends, to meet the various alleged thieves to "buy the parts" and the police could have simply went along and arrested the people there and then, but that was too difficult for them to understand.
Instead, they decided they would go and knock them out of their beds at 7am, and question them about the break in and about the parts, but as they did that, the majority of parts were not even recovered!
I would have been better off going around with a gang of thugs and taking the gear back, but instead of being the victim I would have been the criminal, plus I bottled that idea due to repercussions that might have happened
I suffered a break in a couple of years ago, with lots of rare parts being stolen.
As they had been collected over the previous 20 years, and were beyond ebay rare, I knew they had to crop up again on the internet, so I started scouring numerous websites and found a lot of my parts.
The police managed to get about 1% of the parts back, despite giving names, addresses, photographs of the parts on the various thieves facebook pages etc, the lot.
I had arranged through friends, to meet the various alleged thieves to "buy the parts" and the police could have simply went along and arrested the people there and then, but that was too difficult for them to understand.
Instead, they decided they would go and knock them out of their beds at 7am, and question them about the break in and about the parts, but as they did that, the majority of parts were not even recovered!
I would have been better off going around with a gang of thugs and taking the gear back, but instead of being the victim I would have been the criminal, plus I bottled that idea due to repercussions that might have happened
sim16v said:
I came to realise that the police aren't interested, or are simply not capable of catching criminals, simple as that.
Yet we have one of the highest prison populations in Europe with more in prison than yester-year against a social back drop of trying to limit the number & time people spend in jail.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/06/prison...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/06/u...
The judiciary can't keep up with numbers Police can put before them.
Sim16v
Unfortunately, you are yet another on here who assumes they are aware of the policy and procedures the police have to follow, despite clearly having no knowledge or experience.
What you are suggesting is like asking a mate to phone a drug dealer and then jump them when they come to deliver to your mate. It's completely unlawful and would get thrown out straight away. Police did what they had to, how they had to by the sounds of it.
Unfortunately, you are yet another on here who assumes they are aware of the policy and procedures the police have to follow, despite clearly having no knowledge or experience.
What you are suggesting is like asking a mate to phone a drug dealer and then jump them when they come to deliver to your mate. It's completely unlawful and would get thrown out straight away. Police did what they had to, how they had to by the sounds of it.
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