Monday 24th March 2014

Renault-Caterham partnership on the rocks?

Reports of a split between Renault/Alpine and Caterham makes us fear for the joint sports car

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Is the marriage between Renault and Caterham over before they've even launched a car? That's the scenario reported by Autocar on the weekend based on rumours they've heard that the two are no longer working together.

Sports car was to be built at Dieppe; what now?

We've been closely following this unlikely partnership ever since it was announced in 2012so we dutifully rang them both to find out. "There's no comment I can make," the Caterham spokesman told us, while Renault was no more forthcoming: "I can't tell you a thing." Not exactly confidence inspiring.

A brief backgrounder: the two formed a 50:50 partnership called the Societe des Automobiles Alpine Caterham (SAAC) to jointly produce a car at Renault's old Alpine base in Dieppe, northern France, that would also resurrect the old French sporting badge.

There's been no solid information on what form the car will take, but we got a good idea from Bernard Ollivier, MD of Renaultsport Technology, who told us in 2013 it would use off-the-shelf parts, including the likely use of a 1.6-litre turbo petrol from Renault. But he warned it wouldn't be plain sailing. "It's not difficult to make a sports car. It's quite easy. The difficulty we have is to be profitable," he told us.

"No comment" the official line from Caterham

Rumours emerged of a rift back in February this year, blamed on 'creative tension' between the two brands. As we suggested then, it was easy to believe the momentum had gone out of the project when Renault's petrolhead boss Carlos Tavares left the company in September last year.

We've also had no evidence yet that Caterham can extend its brand appeal beyond its enduring Seven range, despite ambitious plans for SUVs, city cars and even motorbikes announced by Malaysian tycoon owner Tony Fernandes.

Even a brand with a solid sports-car heritage like Toyota can't seem to kickstart the ailing lightweight coupe market with the acclaimed GT86, last year selling just over 6,000 in Europe compared to the 15,000 it planned to.

Autocar's sources seemed to think that the Renault/Caterham split didn't mean the project was dead for good, and we really hope they will separately keep to the planned 2016 production date. Assuming of course that access to the offspring is split amicably between the two.

[Source: Autocar]

[Ex Boy Racer]

Quelle surprise...

[Fetchez la vache]

article said:

The Alpine has been tipped to get 250bhp, with Caterham said to be chasing nearer 300bhp.

I could see how this alone could get on everyones tits.

[kambites]

Would be a shame if true.

I think the combination of Caterham's experience at building sports cars and Renaults financial backing and experience at building mainstream cars could have produced a genuinely great car.

[suffolk009]

Could have been good.

I was more alarmed though by TF's little pre-season pep-talk with the F1 team. If this year is a washout on track, is it likely that he will lose interest in all things Caterham?

[kenno78]

I read the creative tension was based on Renault wanting to alter the design based on feedback from focus groups. Caterham presumably didn't care what it looked like... which would be about right looking at the Aeroseven.

[Frimley111R]

suffolk009 said:

I was more alarmed though by TF's little pre-season pep-talk with the F1 team. If this year is a washout on track, is it likely that he will lose interest in all things Caterham?

Yep, he's basically said 'Do well this year or I'm closing you down'. Not surprising really, F1 is hugely expensive and running around at the back of the grid is hardly a return you are looking for.

[Dave Hedgehog]

The Crack Fox said:

kenno78 said:

Renault wanting to alter the design based on feedback from focus groups.

Renault + Focus Group =

probably the same renault focus group that told them on insisting that the new F1 engines must be quiet, green and sound st

[anonymous-user]

TBH totally honest, i never really saw what the RenCat partnership was trying to achieve. I couldn't see what Caterham actually brought to the deal? I mean, if Renault want to awaken the Alpine brand, then they have all the necessary skills and resources to do just that. If RenSport can build a hot clio, like a 182 cup or whatever, then they can build an Alpine sports car, and the bits that car would need most is the infortainment and electronic architecture from base Renault cars, and not from Caterhams!

At the current low volumes for sports cars, and with the market absolutely flooded with choice from all 4 corners of the globe, would the "caterham" name be enough to make you buy one, instead of say a Cayman or whatever? Even with F1 connections, it wouldn't be enough for me......

[framerateuk]

Max_Torque said:

At the current low volumes for sports cars, and with the market absolutely flooded with choice from all 4 corners of the globe, would the "caterham" name be enough to make you buy one, instead of say a Cayman or whatever? Even with F1 connections, it wouldn't be enough for me......

I would expect a Caterham to be stripped back and provide just the raw experience of driving, without any of the distractions of a Cayman. Would you compare an Elise with a Cayman? I would have expected the new Caterham to go head to head with the Elise end of the spectrum and not try to beat the luxury brands like Porsche.

[anonymous-user]

framerateuk said:

Max_Torque said:

At the current low volumes for sports cars, and with the market absolutely flooded with choice from all 4 corners of the globe, would the "caterham" name be enough to make you buy one, instead of say a Cayman or whatever? Even with F1 connections, it wouldn't be enough for me......

I would expect a Caterham to be stripped back and provide just the raw experience of driving, without any of the distractions of a Cayman. Would you compare an Elise with a Cayman? I would have expected the new Caterham to go head to head with the Elise end of the spectrum and not try to beat the luxury brands like Porsche.

I'd agree, that a caterham sports car would be closer to an elise than a cayman, but trying to make both an Elise competitor AND a Cayman competitor off the same platform is likely to end in a seriously compromised car that is neither one or the other. Add in the fact that the Elise market is pretty much dead on it's feet, with incredibly low volumes, and why would anyone spend say £50M engineering a specific competitor from a more main stream platform version?

[kambites]

Well Alfa just did, and they seem to be selling pretty well.

[suffolk009]

Max_Torque said:

... the RenCat partnership .....

Renham or Caternault, surely?

[framerateuk]

Max_Torque said:

I'd agree, that a caterham sports car would be closer to an elise than a cayman, but trying to make both an Elise competitor AND a Cayman competitor off the same platform is likely to end in a seriously compromised car that is neither one or the other. Add in the fact that the Elise market is pretty much dead on it's feet, with incredibly low volumes, and why would anyone spend say £50M engineering a specific competitor from a more main stream platform version?

I'd agree about profitability. I think maybe that's where the differences appeared from. Caterham are a small company who can make changes quickly and probably develop a platform for a car in a fraction of the cost that it would take Renault to do the same thing. I'm sure there are different holes to jump through getting approval on a low volume car to those of a mass produced one.

I think we're more likely to see something from Caterham than Renault. Renault seem to be cuttings costs hugely on new models at the moment (less spec, less options but higher price on the new Megane R.S for example) and I just can't see them making profit on a sports coupé.

[Ozzie Osmond]

framerateuk said:

Caterham are a small company who can make changes quickly and probably develop a platform for a car in a fraction of the cost that it would take Renault to do the same thing.

Serious question: Have Caterham ever successfully designed/developed anything? It seems to me their bread-and-butter is constantly tweaking the very old Lotus 7 which escapes most regulatory issues simply by having been in continuous production. I doubt they (or anyone else) could get something quite as basic through the new car design requirements, even with low volume dispensations. So whatever comes "new" from Caterham I think it will need to be very different.

[framerateuk]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Serious question: Have Caterham ever successfully designed/developed anything? It seems to me their bread-and-butter is constantly tweaking the very old Lotus 7 which escapes most regulatory issues simply by having been in continuous production. I doubt they (or anyone else) could get something quite as basic through the new car design requirements, even with low volume dispensations. So whatever comes "new" from Caterham I think it will need to be very different.

I think Caterham would argue that there isn't a part left on the 7 that hasn't changed since they took over ownership I certainly see your point though.

They did bring out the CSR, which while being based on the same basic principles of the 7, does have fully independent rear suspension and inboard front suspension, they also built the SP300R which isn't 7 based at all.

[kenno78]

framerateuk said:

SP300R which isn't 7 based at all.

And how many of those have they sold?

I heard they had a surplus of engines which is why they created the 620R.

[Ozzie Osmond]

I'm reminded there was also a "Caterham 21" full bodied car of which only a tiny number were built/sold.

[Olivera]

kenno78 said:

framerateuk said:

SP300R which isn't 7 based at all.

And how many of those have they sold?

Would that be the Lola designed SP300?

[framerateuk]

Olivera said:

Would that be the Lola designed SP300?

Indeed. But even the 7 chassis wasn't made by Caterham themselves for years. My point is, a company like Caterham can make quicker decisions than a behemoth like Renault. Caterham will just be used to a quicker pace of development, and while they can quickly build relationships (like those with Lola or Arch) and get things built while a company like Renault will take a lot longer.

[The Vambo]

I doubt this project will ever see the light of day.

Renault are finding it tough enough to revamp their standard car line-up, let alone resurrect a brand and build a sportscar at the same time.

Just retro-cool super minis and SUVs for the foreseeable.