Channel 4...HDMI cables
Discussion
Firstly sorry if this has been discussed before.
Watched a programme last night about retail 'cons' as such. One of the areas's discussed were HDMI cables, the 'expert' stated that there is categorically no difference between a £1 HDMI from poundland and £80 branded cable.
He said that, there could be no difference as digital signals do not lose strength, what goes in one end comes out the other exactly the same, therefore no cable could be better than another.
I am no expert in this field at all and was amazed, it seems my cambridge audio hdmi's are pointless?!
Do people agree with the above?
Watched a programme last night about retail 'cons' as such. One of the areas's discussed were HDMI cables, the 'expert' stated that there is categorically no difference between a £1 HDMI from poundland and £80 branded cable.
He said that, there could be no difference as digital signals do not lose strength, what goes in one end comes out the other exactly the same, therefore no cable could be better than another.
I am no expert in this field at all and was amazed, it seems my cambridge audio hdmi's are pointless?!
Do people agree with the above?
J012E said:
Firstly sorry if this has been discussed before.
Watched a programme last night about retail 'cons' as such. One of the areas's discussed were HDMI cables, the 'expert' stated that there is categorically no difference between a £1 HDMI from poundland and £80 branded cable.
He said that, there could be no difference as digital signals do not lose strength, what goes in one end comes out the other exactly the same, therefore no cable could be better than another.
I am no expert in this field at all and was amazed, it seems my cambridge audio hdmi's are pointless?!
Do people agree with the above?
With digital you will either get a "perfect" result (i.e. within the error correction tolerance of the protocol) or you will get a terrible result with artifacts all over the screen, whereas with an analogue cable you'll just get progressively more signal noise. If the £1 cable works properly, you will get no benefit from an £80 cable.Watched a programme last night about retail 'cons' as such. One of the areas's discussed were HDMI cables, the 'expert' stated that there is categorically no difference between a £1 HDMI from poundland and £80 branded cable.
He said that, there could be no difference as digital signals do not lose strength, what goes in one end comes out the other exactly the same, therefore no cable could be better than another.
I am no expert in this field at all and was amazed, it seems my cambridge audio hdmi's are pointless?!
Do people agree with the above?
However, the statement on the TV program was oversimplified. You will get signal loss on any cable, and that will probably be worse on the cheap cable. So for long cable runs on demanding HDMI uses you might need to spend more to make sure the cable is able to give you the "perfect" result.
A/B it if you like, it'll only cost you £1.
Kinda true.
Ive never really seen anyone out of the shop show me degradation so bad off a default cable.
I have seen people rave about £60 cables out of the shop though saying they could see the difference.
Maybe its only an issue if running a 60"+ 3D tv.
But i have never had a issue with the HDMI cables i have, ranging from the ones you get in the box, to a 1.4compatible 3D ethernet HDMI off ebay.
Ive never really seen anyone out of the shop show me degradation so bad off a default cable.
I have seen people rave about £60 cables out of the shop though saying they could see the difference.
Maybe its only an issue if running a 60"+ 3D tv.
But i have never had a issue with the HDMI cables i have, ranging from the ones you get in the box, to a 1.4compatible 3D ethernet HDMI off ebay.
A couple of years ago there was a thread about HDMI cables with a link to some reseach done. Basically some engineers tested a load of 10m long cables. In the lab they could measure more signal loss in some of the cables (mainly at the cheaper end). However when connected to real world gear, e.g. BluRay player and TV, they could not discern any difference in sound or vision.
I get my cables (HDMI and ethernet) from Toolstation.
I get my cables (HDMI and ethernet) from Toolstation.
Id be careful watching that program, from what I've seen of it the program is very much behind the curve (90s/00s) when it comes to the 'cons' that the multiples are doing in order to drive profit/market share, the industry is moving very much away from 'cons' and trying to secure repeat business in the face of tougher competition.
As for HDMI cables it depends on length I believe, for a normal length (1m) a £1 cable is quite adequate.
As for HDMI cables it depends on length I believe, for a normal length (1m) a £1 cable is quite adequate.
Ibuprofen is a chemical formula.
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.3544....
There are many Ibuprofen tablets on the market.
They must meet that chemical formula for the product to be called Ibuprofen
You can spend £0.03 per tablet on generic brands.
Or spend a lot more on brands such as Nurofen
The chemical formula is the same. 200mg of Ibuprofen is exactly that - no matter who makes it.
HDMI is a just a bunch of technical standards.
The cables either meet the standard - or do not.
For standard length cables - no difference
If you are running extra long cables - there may some be degradation.
http://www.chemspider.com/Chemical-Structure.3544....
There are many Ibuprofen tablets on the market.
They must meet that chemical formula for the product to be called Ibuprofen
You can spend £0.03 per tablet on generic brands.
Or spend a lot more on brands such as Nurofen
The chemical formula is the same. 200mg of Ibuprofen is exactly that - no matter who makes it.
HDMI is a just a bunch of technical standards.
The cables either meet the standard - or do not.
For standard length cables - no difference
If you are running extra long cables - there may some be degradation.
The James Randi Foundation in the USA has for about 50 years been offering $1m to anyone that could prove the supernatural under laboratory conditions. Fortune tellers psychics, and all those charlatans. God squad etc. No one has ever been able to claim the $1m.
They recently extended this to any HDMI cable manufacturer who could demonstrate that their cable produced superior results to a working $2 cable. No takers so far.
They recently extended this to any HDMI cable manufacturer who could demonstrate that their cable produced superior results to a working $2 cable. No takers so far.
FlossyThePig said:
A couple of years ago there was a thread about HDMI cables with a link to some reseach done. Basically some engineers tested a load of 10m long cables. In the lab they could measure more signal loss in some of the cables (mainly at the cheaper end). However when connected to real world gear, e.g. BluRay player and TV, they could not discern any difference in sound or vision.
I get my cables (HDMI and ethernet) from Toolstation.
Interestingly I fitted a short length- 500mm - shielded cat 6 cable from my modem to my router instead of the freebie that came with my broadband installation - cat 5 and 2m long - and noticed a 10mbs loss in speed.I get my cables (HDMI and ethernet) from Toolstation.
J012E said:
Firstly sorry if this has been discussed before.
Watched a programme last night about retail 'cons' as such. One of the areas's discussed were HDMI cables, the 'expert' stated that there is categorically no difference between a £1 HDMI from poundland and £80 branded cable.
He said that, there could be no difference as digital signals do not lose strength, what goes in one end comes out the other exactly the same, therefore no cable could be better than another.
I am no expert in this field at all and was amazed, it seems my cambridge audio hdmi's are pointless?!
Do people agree with the above?
You missed a bit though. They got a bunch of people to give their opinion on which had the better picture in a side by side test. The cheap cable won.Watched a programme last night about retail 'cons' as such. One of the areas's discussed were HDMI cables, the 'expert' stated that there is categorically no difference between a £1 HDMI from poundland and £80 branded cable.
He said that, there could be no difference as digital signals do not lose strength, what goes in one end comes out the other exactly the same, therefore no cable could be better than another.
I am no expert in this field at all and was amazed, it seems my cambridge audio hdmi's are pointless?!
Do people agree with the above?
An expensive HDMI cable will have better build quality, but it doesn't change the 1's and 0's that get passed through it. If digital data was affected by cheap quality to the point that a person could hear it, then the internet (or any data network) would be f
ked.TwigtheWonderkid said:
The James Randi Foundation in the USA has for about 50 years been offering $1m to anyone that could prove the supernatural under laboratory conditions. Fortune tellers psychics, and all those charlatans. God squad etc. No one has ever been able to claim the $1m.
They recently extended this to any HDMI cable manufacturer who could demonstrate that their cable produced superior results to a working $2 cable. No takers so far.
Hmm.They recently extended this to any HDMI cable manufacturer who could demonstrate that their cable produced superior results to a working $2 cable. No takers so far.
The problem I have with the Randi test is that he, as someone with a vested interest in self-publicity is calling out others with vested interests.
When you actually read the strict terms of the $1m offer you'll see why considering it has been open for years and years that not many tests actually get carried out.
In short, the Randi foundation define the test. But, that's only after you pass a preliminary test, at which point they define the exact terms and specification of the challenge.
So, it's well within their powers to set up a test that is impossible or as difficult as possible to pass - in the strict definition of the 'supernatural' challenge.
For example with the speaker cable challenge that they lauded so much, someone did actually take them up on the offer. However, they would not let him use his familiar music, amp and speakers where the chap claimed he could pass the test, but they reserved the right to choose their own unspecified system should he come for a test.
Additionally, they then defined it to 'immeasurable differences' to meet the 'supernatural' specification. So, for example if the chap does hear the difference between a $70 and $7000 speaker cable, should they measure electrical differences between the cables (which there would certainly be) then he would not win the challenge despite passing the test.
98elise said:
You missed a bit though. They got a bunch of people to give their opinion on which had the better picture in a side by side test. The cheap cable won.
An expensive HDMI cable will have better build quality, but it doesn't change the 1's and 0's that get passed through it. If digital data was affected by cheap quality to the point that a person could hear it, then the internet (or any data network) would be fked.
While a agree that if an HDMI cable is in spec it should work just as well as any other, the whole 'it's digital' argument is BS. Computers and the internet use much stricter protocols to insure data is transmitted and recieved correctly. If an error is detected the data is resent, and keeps getting resent until it get's transmitted 100% correctly or it fails, and you know your internet connection, HD, etc. is broken. HDMI has no ability to resend the data, if an error is detected then the receiving device has to try and correct the data best it can.An expensive HDMI cable will have better build quality, but it doesn't change the 1's and 0's that get passed through it. If digital data was affected by cheap quality to the point that a person could hear it, then the internet (or any data network) would be f
ked.I had a brochure come through from a hi-fi retailer telling me about, amongst other things, Chord's new ethernet cables which from a quick look online go up to £850.
Now, if you go onto Wall Street or the LSE they will be shifting tens of TB's of data which require sub microsecond latency and if anything at all goes wrong someone somewhere loses a fking stload of money.
They will be using ethernet cables that cost a few pence in any significant volume, but apparently the bits that go from your Sonos will sound better with a cable costing almost a grand.
OK then.
Now, if you go onto Wall Street or the LSE they will be shifting tens of TB's of data which require sub microsecond latency and if anything at all goes wrong someone somewhere loses a f
king stload of money.They will be using ethernet cables that cost a few pence in any significant volume, but apparently the bits that go from your Sonos will sound better with a cable costing almost a grand.
OK then.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I had a brochure come through from a hi-fi retailer telling me about, amongst other things, Chord's new ethernet cables which from a quick look online go up to £850.
Now, if you go onto Wall Street or the LSE they will be shifting tens of TB's of data which require sub microsecond latency and if anything at all goes wrong someone somewhere loses a fking stload of money.
They will be using ethernet cables that cost a few pence in any significant volume, but apparently the bits that go from your Sonos will sound better with a cable costing almost a grand.
OK then.
Unfortunately you are making some massive assumptions there, one of which may be you don't understand the difference between UDP/IP & TCP/IP.Now, if you go onto Wall Street or the LSE they will be shifting tens of TB's of data which require sub microsecond latency and if anything at all goes wrong someone somewhere loses a f
king stload of money.They will be using ethernet cables that cost a few pence in any significant volume, but apparently the bits that go from your Sonos will sound better with a cable costing almost a grand.
OK then.
HDMI over Twisted Pair (CAT5 or 6) - simply spreads the HDMI signal over the multiple pairs of two CAT cables - it is not packet data.
HDMI over Ethernet is a different ball game all together - and from what I've seen it doesn't use TCP/IP it uses UDP/IP and may involve some compression.
One example
And we all know the joke about the UDP packet... I didn't get it.
So, HDMI over Ethernet using UDP - is absolutely guaranteed to lose a few packets, a good cable will help but you might also like to read a bit about Carrier Sense Multiple Access With Collision Detection
Hope this clears up the old Bankers can do it why can't we - it's digital it always arrives myth.
Edit to fix link.
Edited by TheExcession on Saturday 29th March 14:42
Whilst I like nicely made cables I don't like being ripped.....
I butyl cables that are not cheap, but not expensive as I like the feel of the connectors and cable surround...... and yes, over a distance of 8m (digit box & TV to processor) paid a bit more.... reality of life can I see or any difference, probably not its psychological
I butyl cables that are not cheap, but not expensive as I like the feel of the connectors and cable surround...... and yes, over a distance of 8m (digit box & TV to processor) paid a bit more.... reality of life can I see or any difference, probably not its psychological
You shall be stepping into the hilarious world of the audiophile.....here be dragons and lunatics ^^
Glad to see sensible responses regarding digital cables, so much of the net id filled with hilarious bullst, and also glad to see someone pointing out the fundamental difference between udp and tcp, if I had £1 for every time I have had to explain that....
Glad to see sensible responses regarding digital cables, so much of the net id filled with hilarious bulls
t, and also glad to see someone pointing out the fundamental difference between udp and tcp, if I had £1 for every time I have had to explain that.... Honestly, I wouldn't claim to know the specifics of how HDMI works, but I've worked in IT long enough to know that your data doesn't corrupt so long as you use a cable of suitable specification.
Keep in mind I'm assuming proper implementation of TCP/IP as a transport protocol here and not simply using the cabling as wiring.
In the IT world you don't see uber-expensive ethernet cables - if I were to suggest to my IT guys that we go buy some $800 ethernet cables to connect our servers to our SAN I'd be laughed out of the room.
if people want to think that because the data is audio data so it's somehow different then fair enough.
Keep in mind I'm assuming proper implementation of TCP/IP as a transport protocol here and not simply using the cabling as wiring.
In the IT world you don't see uber-expensive ethernet cables - if I were to suggest to my IT guys that we go buy some $800 ethernet cables to connect our servers to our SAN I'd be laughed out of the room.
if people want to think that because the data is audio data so it's somehow different then fair enough.
MG0o said:
You shall be stepping into the hilarious world of the audiophile.....here be dragons and lunatics ^^
Glad to see sensible responses regarding digital cables, so much of the net id filled with hilarious bullst, and also glad to see someone pointing out the fundamental difference between udp and tcp, if I had £1 for every time I have had to explain that....
Oxygen free copper is oxygen free copper.Glad to see sensible responses regarding digital cables, so much of the net id filled with hilarious bulls
t, and also glad to see someone pointing out the fundamental difference between udp and tcp, if I had £1 for every time I have had to explain that.... It isn't directional.
Just get a decent gauge. ( Avoid aluminium cable coated in copper ). and you will be all set.
If you look inside your amplifier - you will see lots of £0.02 resistors and £0.10 capacitors.
Adding a £100 per metre cable isn't going to be worthwhile.
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